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Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1266967
04/10/2011 22:42
04/10/2011 22:42

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1NRO
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A 32 mm valve was used you say, I'll mull that over. First thoughts would be the increased valve size will need some serious metal removed which is difficult from what I was looking at on the SSR. The size might well be possible but at the expense of what.

In regards to being potentially a better ultimate power engine than the 4cyl I'd have to disagree, rpm will sort that out easy enough, the 5 cyl just won't do high rpm like the 4 cyl will.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1266969
04/10/2011 22:50
04/10/2011 22:50

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group5lancia
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Originally Posted by 1NRO
In regards to being potentially a better ultimate power engine than the 4cyl I'd have to disagree, rpm will sort that out easy enough, the 5 cyl just won't do high rpm like the 4 cyl will.


I have read here of them revving to 8000 - what do you rev your 16V to?

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1266971
04/10/2011 22:55
04/10/2011 22:55

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The 4 cyl is known to go past 10k, a lot of 4 cyl engines do whereas I've never heard of a 5cyl coming close.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1266974
04/10/2011 22:56
04/10/2011 22:56

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group5lancia
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Originally Posted by 1NRO

The 4 cyl is known to go past 10k, a lot of 4 cyl engines do whereas I've never heard of a 5cyl coming close.


Maybe - but what do you rev yours too?

The 5 cylinder engine has a shorter stroke so, with solid lifters, would be safer for higher RPM than the 90mm stroke of the 16V engine

Last edited by group5lancia; 04/10/2011 22:57.
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1266977
04/10/2011 23:02
04/10/2011 23:02

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group5lancia
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Originally Posted by 1NRO

The 4 cyl is known to go past 10k


By the way, that's a mean piston speed of 30 metres/sec, peak piston speed of 49 metres per second and maximum piston acceleration of 4075G - how long do they last?

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1266978
04/10/2011 23:04
04/10/2011 23:04

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tricky
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Originally Posted by group5lancia


It is easier to fill 400cc pots than it is 500cc pots,


Sure - but the inlet port looks long and slim, more geared toward lower valve lifts and mid range torque. If it can be made to compliment a high lift cam ie; bpf and peak lift intersect at 'some' point there is a case for that.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1266981
04/10/2011 23:08
04/10/2011 23:08

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tricky
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The 5 clyinder has a natural un balance regardless of stroke or rod length, a 4 pot is'nt ideal either mind .

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1266983
04/10/2011 23:11
04/10/2011 23:11

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group5lancia
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Originally Posted by tricky
Originally Posted by group5lancia


It is easier to fill 400cc pots than it is 500cc pots,


Sure - but the inlet port looks long and slim, more geared toward lower valve lifts and mid range torque. If it can be made to compliment a high lift cam ie; bpf and peak lift intersect at 'some' point there is a case for that.


Overall length of the inlet tract - including the ports, manifold etc, is what determines the rpm range, isn't it? And GC said you can take 2mm of metal 'from anywhere' on the head, so the ports can be made significantly bigger if required it would seem.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267035
05/10/2011 07:44
05/10/2011 07:44

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Quote


Maybe - but what do you rev yours too?


I don't, too impoverished to finish my money pit ATM, so many other projects and short of winning the lottery it will take a while yet. How hard do you rev yours?

Last edited by Begbie; 05/10/2011 08:29. Reason: Fixing quotations
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267036
05/10/2011 07:46
05/10/2011 07:46

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Originally Posted by group5lancia
Originally Posted by tricky
Originally Posted by group5lancia


It is easier to fill 400cc pots than it is 500cc pots,


Sure - but the inlet port looks long and slim, more geared toward lower valve lifts and mid range torque. If it can be made to compliment a high lift cam ie; bpf and peak lift intersect at 'some' point there is a case for that.


Overall length of the inlet tract - including the ports, manifold etc, is what determines the rpm range, isn't it? And GC said you can take 2mm of metal 'from anywhere' on the head, so the ports can be made significantly bigger if required it would seem.


2 mm is barely enough to cater for the standard valve let alone making it a fair bit bigger.

Last edited by 1NRO; 05/10/2011 07:48.
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267037
05/10/2011 07:51
05/10/2011 07:51

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Quote

The 5 cylinder engine has a shorter stroke so, with solid lifters, would be safer for higher RPM than the 90mm stroke of the 16V engine


Find an example of a 5 cyl doing big rpm, I can't.

Last edited by Begbie; 05/10/2011 08:29. Reason: Fixing quotations
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267038
05/10/2011 07:57
05/10/2011 07:57

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Quote

Overall length of the inlet tract - including the ports, manifold etc, is what determines the rpm range, isn't it? And GC said you can take 2mm of metal 'from anywhere' on the head, so the ports can be made significantly bigger if required it would seem.


That stuff influences the engines sweet spot but it's the engines assembly that allows it to survive it. At high levels servicing needs to be frequent but it helps if there's something to service.

Last edited by Begbie; 05/10/2011 08:29. Reason: Fixing quotations
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267050
05/10/2011 08:35
05/10/2011 08:35
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Originally Posted by 1NRO
Quote

The 5 cylinder engine has a shorter stroke so, with solid lifters, would be safer for higher RPM than the 90mm stroke of the 16V engine


Find an example of a 5 cyl doing big rpm, I can't.

Fiat Uno with a Stilo engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQm8HVxHQm4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKGQ1eHm0qQ


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267073
05/10/2011 09:14
05/10/2011 09:14

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I'm just on my phone so it's a struggle to see what he revs to, does he go past 10k?

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267098
05/10/2011 09:50
05/10/2011 09:50

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group5lancia
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8500, but although I still have full boost at that speed the power peaks at 7500, so not much point in revving it higher unless to save a gearchange.

I'm not sure what would need to be done to shift the peak power higher if I wanted to. More radical cams I suppose, but then I can't find any cams more radical off the shelf.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267105
05/10/2011 10:10
05/10/2011 10:10
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Originally Posted by 1NRO
I'm just on my phone so it's a struggle to see what he revs to, does he go past 10k?

No idea, but I know it's a high revving 5 pot engine smile As for the 10k rpm, wasn't that Greg in Greece where he has de-stroked it to run a 1.8 to give him the revs?


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267113
05/10/2011 10:17
05/10/2011 10:17

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So its an unknown other than not really being ultimate effort.

That's often how they buzz the 4cyl's that high, not always but often.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267115
05/10/2011 10:20
05/10/2011 10:20

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Originally Posted by group5lancia
8500, but although I still have full boost at that speed the power peaks at 7500, so not much point in revving it higher unless to save a gearchange.

I'm not sure what would need to be done to shift the peak power higher if I wanted to. More radical cams I suppose, but then I can't find any cams more radical off the shelf.


I thought you were building a 16v engine?

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267116
05/10/2011 10:22
05/10/2011 10:22

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GCRE
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"Overall length of the inlet tract - including the ports, manifold etc, is what determines the rpm range, isn't it?"

No, only on atmo engines. On pressure-charged installations, it's not a factor at all in the power curve (except off-boost. In terms of power output however the longer the inlet tract the higher the viscous losses & the more boost is needed to overcome them - the very losses we're trying to eliminate with head work.

G

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267118
05/10/2011 10:25
05/10/2011 10:25

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group5lancia
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Originally Posted by 1NRO
Originally Posted by group5lancia
8500, but although I still have full boost at that speed the power peaks at 7500, so not much point in revving it higher unless to save a gearchange.

I'm not sure what would need to be done to shift the peak power higher if I wanted to. More radical cams I suppose, but then I can't find any cams more radical off the shelf.


I thought you were building a 16v engine?


Yes - that's what I am talking about.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267119
05/10/2011 10:26
05/10/2011 10:26

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GCRE
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I have read this thank you Ferrarist

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1246353#Post1246353

is there a photo hosting service that opens quickly and is junk/advert free?

G

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267121
05/10/2011 10:28
05/10/2011 10:28

G
group5lancia
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Originally Posted by GCRE
"Overall length of the inlet tract - including the ports, manifold etc, is what determines the rpm range, isn't it?"

No, only on atmo engines. On pressure-charged installations, it's not a factor at all in the power curve (except off-boost. In terms of power output however the longer the inlet tract the higher the viscous losses & the more boost is needed to overcome them - the very losses we're trying to eliminate with head work.

G


Ah, yes. I forgot your theory that sound waves don't travel through air more dense than one atmosphere.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267124
05/10/2011 10:35
05/10/2011 10:35

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1NRO
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Originally Posted by GCRE
I have read this thank you Ferrarist

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1246353#Post1246353

is there a photo hosting service that opens quickly and is junk/advert free?

G


imageshack leaves me alone though it is a fiddle.

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267126
05/10/2011 10:37
05/10/2011 10:37

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1NRO
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Originally Posted by group5lancia
Originally Posted by 1NRO
Originally Posted by group5lancia
8500, but although I still have full boost at that speed the power peaks at 7500, so not much point in revving it higher unless to save a gearchange.

I'm not sure what would need to be done to shift the peak power higher if I wanted to. More radical cams I suppose, but then I can't find any cams more radical off the shelf.


I thought you were building a 16v engine?


well your not trying hard enough then wink

Yes - that's what I am talking about.

Last edited by 1NRO; 05/10/2011 10:38.
Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: ] #1267134
05/10/2011 10:50
05/10/2011 10:50
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Originally Posted by GCRE
I have read this thank you Ferrarist

is there a photo hosting service that opens quickly and is junk/advert free?

G

You may use uploadnow.org or uploadup.com
No need to register, when image is uploaded, just copy the image URL from "Direct Link" field, and use it here.
Hope that's help......


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267141
05/10/2011 11:08
05/10/2011 11:08

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GCRE
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"Ah, yes. I forgot your theory that sound waves don't travel through air more dense than one atmosphere"

Martin do give it a rest. That is not a theory I ever put forward.

The reason why inlet tract length does not have any influence on power on a pressure-charged unit under boost is that the cylinder in a state of depression sees overpressure right at the inlet valve whereas on an atmo unit the primary wave (negative) travels up the inlet tract and is only reflected when it sees atmospheric pressure (eg: at the rampipe exit). There is NO such beneficial inlet wave activity in a turbo unit, and to be fair it's not needed being like the engine has, well, a turbocharger on it.

G

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267144
05/10/2011 11:25
05/10/2011 11:25

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Marco20ValveT
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is any one else finding this massivley interesting??

smile

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267147
05/10/2011 11:27
05/10/2011 11:27

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GCRE
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upload.com is way too slow I'll be uploading for weeks.

What is fast and junk free PLEASE!!

G

Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267153
05/10/2011 11:35
05/10/2011 11:35
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Photobucket.com
few ads but a good quick service


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Re: Define Headwork for me please. [Re: technics] #1267154
05/10/2011 11:36
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Or email them to
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