I just had a wander downstairs at work and decided to have a quick look at the noticeboard for any cars for sale.

There's a lovely looking W reg 20vT in black, 120k miles on the clock and in allegedly good mechanical condition for £1750.

Right next to it there is an X reg Audi TT 225 in red, 121k miles with a "noisey first gear" going for.......£3495?!?!?!?

It's the same age, more mileage, slower, uglier, and by the owners own admission it needs some gearbox work. So why will someone pay twice as much for the audi as they would for the superior Fiat? And they will as well! I'm sure the Fiat will be advertised long after the Audi is snatched up. Madness!

Ah but you can't beat German reliability

You can't really compare relative condition just from cards pinned to a noticeboard can you? And you don't know how much they'll fetch. What's to say the g/box is the only thing wrong with the TT?

As much as I like the Coupe there's a piece towards the front of the current issue of CAR Magazine that says that TT and and the A2 are the closest there's been to show stopping concepts made for public consumption.

The Coupe is based on the Tipo that came out in 1988 and the TT is based on the Golf that came out about a decade later.

The UK car buying public worship brands. I don't think the Fiat brand is comparable with the Audi brand. It's no different from people loving their Adidas attire and their North Face coats is it? Brits are snobs for brands, it's not news is it?

Maybe you have a point Monza. As I sit here in my TK max jumper, george shirt and generic jeans; perhaps I'm the one who is strange because I don't care about brands.

It just shocks me that cars that were direct competitors when released command such different prices now.

It's why my daily driver is a Skoda........at 60% less than the equivalent VW Pisshat! I just smile smugly as I pass VW badge snobs

I feel sorry for people like that, I really do...smug audi drivers in their dull as hell repmobiles and hairdressers cars (TT's), the fact they make a TDI TT just says it all for me

A damn quick car...

I've been thinking about this a little having been in the kitchen and made some food as fuel having exercised earlier.

I've had 2 Fiats. I like Fiats, but I struggled to think what the Fiat brand means in the UK? They're like an Italian Citroen with some supposed Italian coolness? Fiat are the owners of Ferrari? After a while with the frying pan and grill and opening a new bottle of Heinz tomato ketchup I thought of small hatches, Top Gear and TwinAir.

So at the moment to me someone that's owned two Fiats they mean fun little hatches and TwinAir.

Perhaps that's an idea for continuing the discussion? What does the Fiat brand mean in the UK?

I'm not sure where Audi come in the brand league tables? Slightly below Aston Martin and Porsche? Above BMW? Beside BMW?

I came around to your way of thinking a little. An ex-gf's parents were Ford devotees. When their Sierra was up for replacement they were going for the MK4 Escort (Not the MK3 Facelift) that got panned by CAR Magazine for having a worse rear suspension set up than the MK3 it replaced. After they'd been in a colleagues Rover they were thinking Rover, and informing them of the slating the MK4 Escort got they got a Honda powered Rover 200. When they struggled to get the suitcases in the Rover there was still grumbling about 'should've got a Ford'. So how many millions of mediocre cars did Ford sell purely on their name, reputation and brand?

How many of us have benefitted from Ford seriously raising their game with the Mondeo and Focus?

I'm not sure I'd compare the TT and the Fiat Coupe, hence why I referenced the ages of the hatch platforms they're based on. CAR compared the GTV V6 and TT in a piece called 'Screen Stars', and possibly something else. Merc. SLK? It definitely wasn't the Coupe.

I like the Fiat Coupe but I can see some merit in the TT, the VR6 DSG ones particularly.

Ultimately aren't the values dependent on what the buying public is prepared to pay? The values are dependent on the percieved brands and reputations? I am not sure how we factor in relative popularity and 'coolness' when they were new? I think the TT hit the target with a bigger proportion of society and that would also mean greater demand and values when used.


My brands? Casio watch as it works has several alarms but most importantly is waterproof. Some Next jeans that are only noticeable from the Next bit where the Levis card would be on Levis, bought before a hot date in 1997 (she was always trying to smarten me up), a zipped sweater from Tesco or Sainsburys, white tee shirt that may have a Burton label but dates from 90s and some Clarks boots bought from one of their outlets a few years ago. I've had to throw away two pairs of best shoes that were hardly worn in the last few years so I am leaning towards Clarks and getting some wear out of them.

I like Porsche 924s. I don't care if they have a VW/Audi motor. I see them as RWD Audis. They seem less rust prone than 944s despite them being galvanised.

I'm not sure I really give a **** what others think. I have relatives that live their lives for what others that aren't even their relations may think of them. Life is too short. I'll live mine for me, not to comply with what others want or think.

Don't we have brand snobbery when it comes to part makers, oil and fuel? Gates belts? Dayco belts? Selenia oil? MAF ruining K&Ns?

People buy brands. There was a great little documentary series on the BBC a few years ago entitled The History of Self or something like that that started with Freud and then went onto how big business convinced us that we needed to buy things, to continually replace what we already had because the new thing was fractionally better, and it even touched upon how politicians and political parties used market research methods to find out what we wanted and could then incorporate that into their manifestos so we'd vote for them.

From where I am sat those prices seem about right.

The idea of a good, well maintained, standard 20VT being >£3K is at that sort of level there are lots of equally desirable, interesting, newer and better cars around. You can get a 944S2 for that sort of money. It may have rusty cills and unfortunately have a sunroof but it was quite a tasty bit of kit when new.

I think it would be a lot easier to find a standard TT rather than one that's been 'personalised'.


The Fiat Coupe is a great car in its own right. There's no need to beat up other cars and brands over it.

what did you have for dinner Monza? Magic mushrooms

Interesting post MikeRoss.

Just washed my teeth and the thought from the bathroom where I do all of my best thinking is what if instead of being a range topping halo model to boost all of the other Fiats it had Alcantara covered interior, double bubble roof if Bangle could borrow that from Zagato and it was branded Lancia?

Would they be worth more today if they were branded Lancia?

Quick maybe but a diesel sports coupe is just wrong in my opinion :O(. Same with diesel convertible, epic fail. The noise alone, especially compared to the coupe is just a big no no...

Are you watching me? Are you in the field across the road?

Morrison's closed cup mushrooms 80p or 2 for £1.50

Two fried eggs and two toasted crusts too.

Hopefully I won't be ambushed with a drugs test later.


The colours on the posters in the gym seemed decidely more vivid after the two hour work out the week before last. Perhaps it's the exercise? And/or the 1/2 pint mug of coffee?

Agrre with that. I am looking for a car and I just couldn't bring myself to buy a deisel.

Monza does have a point in a way though a lot of it is about perception and branding. But I do think Fiat are slowly escaping from poor brand perception. The number of 500's and punto's on the road confirms that but they don't offer anything in the luxury or sports market

Pug 406 2.2 HDi Coupe? Shame about the DPF.



The new TT has a bespoke chassis now, it's no longer just a Golf in a frock. Play nicely. Come on if everyone had a Fiat Coupe it would be boring and it wouldn't just be a select band that were in the know.

Not a fan of the 406 coupe hdi either, any diesel for that matter, petrol all the way...would always have the 3.0 v6 pug or 2.2 petrol over the hdi, not sure what you mean by play nicely, was just voicing my opinion about diesels .

Coupes are chav cars... haven't you heard silly?

I don't think any car is a chav car, just the driver that can be one lol.

Nice thread.

Diesels? They're torquey aren't they?

20VTs reel in the horizon on a wave of force induced torque?

It doesn't fill me with joy when I have to hand wads of money to the treasury to fill my car. If a diesel will go further for a similar amount then I can see it could have some appeal.

The engineering in the TT often leaves them in show room condition after 100000 miles, that can rarely be said for Fiats, much as I admire the Coupe, albeit primarily for the character and performance of the engine.

I tested a 225 TT tother day (around £3k in a garage) it could not be told from new inside or out and had done over 100000 miles with only part history - mega impressive condition, however totally lacking in fun and performance - drove a similar Coop - raggedy condition, looking very secondhand (290 bhp so v entertaining) asking £2k (98 car)

Both Alfa and Fiat offer excellent used value due to build quality / how well they age and being regarded as unreliable.

£2k will buy an excellent 20vt or 3 litre GTV - the Alfa usually being in better condition, magical engine, available in quantity thus deflecting interest away from the Coop, which is a bit of a 'sleeper'

If the GTV could be cheaply tuned to 300 bhp as can the Coop, I too would go that way...regrettably, ...I feel the need,....the need....

My Plus has 130K on the clock and it's in showroom condition. It's how the car is kept and the conditions it has endured, not the name on the badge Alfa/Fiat not ageing as well as other marques is a load of cobblers, simply put.

Yes mate but 20vt's 'sound' amazing, how a sports coupe should, diesels have come on in leaps and bound but still sound poo in my opinion. Would rather put up with the fuel bills than the sound of a tractor for a sportscar lol, especially windows down on a hot sunny day,hopefully get another coupe this summer

Agreed on the 5 cylinder burble.

Booting it in tunnels is heaven too, also fun for sh***ing people up haha

The GTV in normal guise is damned thirsty; if you wanted a tuned one best buy Libya first. IMO the Coupe handles better too, with less rattles and better looks

Is it not simply because the Audi is 'one of those nice cars you see around.'

The Fiat is 'one of those nice cars they made way back in the 90s.'

Even though the cars in the adverts are a similar age, the TT is a car still in production (although it is obviously a different car) whereas the Coupe hasn't been marketed for a decade.

Having went from my 2nd coupe to an S3 the novelty of the Audi build quality is nice however the drive just wasn't as much fun, in no way shape or form. Initially I loved the Audi but not long after I missed the fun factor of the coupe and regretted being duped into the brand game.

Don't get me wrong if I was in the market for a reliable diesel or something of a rep like ilk Iould still go to VAG as for a boring car they are the best of a bad bunch in my humble opinion/preference.

However on topic, it's paying for a brand and having a market that helps keep these cars in strong money but isn't that a given with Audi/BMWs, just means us clever coupe owners win a watch in comparison to our TT/S3 counterparts

I think part of it is that the Audi has mass market appeal, a bit like glasses with wide, periperal vision obscuring arms, iPods/iPhones/iPads and the Fiat Coupe, struggling to think of anything that appeals to a tiny but knowledgeable group, is like Linux and the Tom Ravenscroft show on BBC Radio 6?

I think the comparison also involves rationality, something that the majority of car purchases are not based on. Buying a car is so wrapped up in all that marketing and emotion intangible 'I want' stuff.

Other considerations could be the amount and distribution of VW independents, and I should imagine that parts should be readily available for the TT given the MK4 Golf underpinnings and all the other Seats/Audis/Skoda that used them. I know the Coupe may share parts with other Fiats but those were hardly massive sellers here and I'm not sure what the demand would be for bits from broken Tipos/Bravas/Bravos etc.


That Complete Car magazine article posted elsewhere here that compares the 20VT to the E36 M3 Evo also has me thinking. When the M3 Evo was so much more expensive new and are now available from £3K> then the advertised price for the Coupe mentioned in the original post seems about right?