That would just be too cruel a thing to do to a tortoise.
They have little enough ground clearance to start with.

FINALLY!

Even without a doctorate, my psychology was right on the money. Jonny suffers from a need to believe he is important.

To answer your questions, why are we here and what is our purpose? We are here as the result of chemical/biological reactions. Nothing more.

What is our purpose? We dont have one. Would you ask what the purpose of a Panda Bear or a Dolphin is? I expect that you wouldn't. Why? becuase you have given yourself a self-important label. You are 'better' than the Panda bear.

The sooner you realise you are no different to, say, the mosquito mentioned a few posts up, the sooner you will realise, you're not important, your not special, you are just a collection of atoms which have formed together.

May I borrow that for a sign in the office? Normally have to pay a fortune for motivational talks like that!

Piss on my chips why don't you. I thought I was doing OK in life until I read that. Going up in the office it is. .

Logic suggests no such thing; indeed, if you do accept that premise you must assume a circular logic as demonstrated by Andrew.



And you assume that there is a *reason*? The only sensible answer to 'why' is 'why not?' - mind you, I'm a solipsist...

Chuck Norris is a collection of atoms that have come together necessarily.

Just to play devils advercat here, if he was suggesting he believed in a chap who could feed 40k people with one sandwich box, after a bit of a kip rose from dead and could turn water in to wine, the hole topic would have been shut down quite a long time ago.

It's amazing that if one shouts aliens they get riddleculed but if one suggests a god exists its taboo to have to much of a go.

It's kind of the same premise but it would seem aliens have much more in the way of vid footage ( supposed aliens)

I agree. Religion still carries privileges, and I don't think it warrants them. Can anyone here suggest why it should? people are entitled to believe whatever they choose, but why should everyone else tip-toe around just the religious ones?

I, for one, hold God botherers in the same contempt as UFO fanatics, ghost hunters, astrologers and psychics. Wanting so much for something to be true that you'll see "evidence" in anything you like does not make you any less crazy, whatever the subject.

Religion comes from the same need to feel special.

The difference is we know more about the world around us. Thousands of years ago the 'big questions' were "what is the sky", "what is the sun", "how did we get here", "why are there men & women" etc etc.

Over the centuries science has answered these questions. So some people with a need to feel 'special' have moved with the times to the next set of unanswered questions and attempt to answer them.

Not too sure about that -

I suspect that (for me, at least) a person's religious convictions are too valuable to that person for me to feel free to challenge them. I am not a spiteful person, and I don't feel the need to disabuse someone of their religion, even if I can.

Of course, if a person starts behaving appallingly in the name of their religion, that changes the landscape.

Having said that, a belief in UFOs and aliens seems just as important to many.

Its clear jonnybgt feels very strongly about his belief's in UFO's what makes them less valuable than some one's opinion on there religion.

Edit, you got the point I was trying to make with your last sentence.

I think it might have something to do with whether beliefs are supposed to be supported by evidence. It's the evidence we ridicule. If someone is a Young Earther, for example, they lay themselves open to ridicule. If they are just putting their faith in something bigger than us, we leave them alone.

Religion, by its popularity, is the acceptable face of self-important delusion. I'm sure if 90% of the world believed not only in extraterrestrial visitors, but that they grant them unending life after death, then it may be held with the same reverance by people who should know better.

What do Christians view the bible as then if not evidence of existence? I know many people question the dates at which it was written though and as its essentualy a compost of material from different dates?

Well you seem to have answered your own question:

1. Many Christians treat the Bible as evidence for their convictions

2. They get torn to pieces.

Fair point Enforcer

For many Christians (and Jews) there are no problems with dating when the bible was written. Tradition ascribes the authorship of the first 5 books of the bible (the Pentateuch or Torah) to Moses, which would date it to somewhere around 1200BC, which would be around 500 years earlier than the date it was likely first written down.

There are good, historical, reasons to believe that the books weren't written in their current form prior to 722BC, but they're too long to go into here.

Anyway, unless you're desperate to stick to the fundamentalist view that the Pentateuch was dictated, letter by letter, to Moses by God then the date it was written down doesn't cause an issue, as the stories are clearly based on much older oral traditions, so just because they were written down 500 years after the Exodus doesn't prove that they're not from that time.

Of course, the bible is a great source of evidence for ancient UFOs.

You are Erich von Daniken, and I claim my free, "God was an astronaut" badge!

I learned the word "charlatan" from my dad in relation to Erik von Daniken.

There is a difference between believing in aliens and believing in a God. Its the nature of the belief.

For Aliens it seems to require physical evidence, and that always seems to be something sciencey like a particular isotope, or some remnant left on a person or an animal or a crop. Its based on a rational, logical, analytical process. It's therefore reasonably easy to deconstruct the more outlandish bits, which until we have compelling evidence of other intelligent life is all of it.

For religion the belief itself is enough for society to take it seriously. I think criticism of this is a bit more taboo because of the time, effort and devotion, not to mention the blood, that has gone into the religions over the centuries. This is bound to leave remnants on the collective concious - modern nations were often formed from what was purportedly God's will. Our Monarchy - which interestingly is fervently supported by some of the more robust anti-religion posters on here - claims higher religious authority. Religion is part of who we are, whether you individually like it or not. Perhaps that is ridiculous. It certainly seems it when you write it down.

However, I prefer to think of it as an early attempt at a moral code, which had mixed success.

Yes, but remember people that believe in god do so despite despite the lack of any evidence. They are not offering any evidence either. The belief system of a religious person is entirely faith based. They have faith in the existence of a god, despite the complete lack of evidence. It is therefore illogical to argue that there is no god, because there is no proof a god exists. They know no proof exists, that's why the belief in god requires faith.
If there was any evidence then belief in a god would not require faith and religion would ipso facto become science.
This is the reason that i find it very odd that people question the beliefs of religious people*

*Except those cult like religions that knock my door looking for new cult members...screw those people, they deserve all the mockery and abuse they usually get from me.

Wheels within wheels, eh? You are Eziekel and I claim my five pounds!

So, is Eziekel a credible UFO witness?

Pro
- Gives detailed description
- Accurately predicted destruction of Jerusalem
- Character reference from God

Con
- No PhD
- Regarded a prophet in Islam, so may have anti-US agenda
- Description makes no sense

Hmmm, could go either way.

Ezekiel sounded pretty convincing when delivered by Samuel L Jackson in Pulp Fiction. Does that count?

Hey you lot, stop herding up on Jonny. He has quite clearly demonstrated with irrefutable evidence, not only to members here, but the world that not only do aliens exist, but they are capable of travelling here in order to appear as a blurry movement in the corona of the Sun.

The only reason you're herding together is a combination of ignorance and the efforts of world governments to cover up this undeniable phenomenon.

I'd like to extend a laurel and a hearty handshake to them, our new neighbours.

A Laurel and Hardy handshake? What on Earth (or elsewhere) are you on about, man?

Oh, that's right. Instead of admitting that I'm quite clearly correct about all of this you've just decided to pull my post to bits. If you'd look at the evidence that everything I post makes perfect sense instead of calling me names then you might not be so scared about accepting our ET creators.