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Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! #1347806
31/05/2012 22:07
31/05/2012 22:07
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Have serious trouble with lean mixture under engine load. I'm using Innovate wideband AFR to monitor the mixture.
Here is the symptoms - when on 2nd,3th,4th gear and engine becomes under load(2500 - 5000rpm), and boost is between -0,2(vacuum) - 1.0bar, mixture vary between 15 - 18AFR.....when boost comes in full again runs slightly leaner, but i assume that now engine sucks more air because i ported head and intake after remap was done....or i just hope so.
Checked so far - plugs in good shape......countless checks for leaks before and after the turbo(have SIP and FMIC).......Walbro did 7-8bars when started, completed fuel pressure test from the manual........no signs of misfire or banging under acceleration.......inlet rubber donuts changed with DIY's - no difference......servo keeps vacuum for ages, did one run with servo hose disconnected and it's exit tapped - no difference.......perfect coils.....DV26 tested numerous times - no leaks........fuel vapor and crankcase breathings vented and it's exits tapped.....MAF cleaned and works fine.....all 5 injectors checked for leaks and with 16 - 17 ohms.......
I'm running 4bar FPR, GT28RS with Flea map for 1.4b......
Really have no idea what can cause this, still can't find spare 4b FPR to see if any difference.......have new lambda sensor for comparison and if no solution, i don't know what can be investigated anymore......
For me it's fuel mixture related problem, idle mixture is perfect.......
Any ideas.....
Will try to capture some clip with real time readings, afr gauge,boost controller and rev counter are close to each other on the dashboard....
Any ideas?????


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347810
31/05/2012 22:16
31/05/2012 22:16
Joined: Dec 2006
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stockport
volumex Offline
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silly question have yo changed the fuel filter

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347811
31/05/2012 22:19
31/05/2012 22:19
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stockport
volumex Offline
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to test the fuel pressure get a regulator with a pressure gauge
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/sytec-adj...SM&hash=item2571084bdf#ht_500wt_1416

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: volumex] #1347812
31/05/2012 22:21
31/05/2012 22:21
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Originally Posted by volumex
silly question have yo changed the fuel filter

Did all "wise" things and checks with no results, so all silly questions welcomed.....
Fuel filter changed twice for 2 years, less than 9k km's since i bought the car from UK.....last change was this january from my memory.
Originally Posted by volumex
to test the fuel pressure get a regulator with a pressure gauge
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/sytec-adj...SM&hash=item2571084bdf#ht_500wt_1416

I tested the fuel pressure according to the manual here, and it's as it should.....as i said, another 4bar FPR will be nice to try, but must find one.....will try to find regulator as on this ebay link.....

Last edited by Ferrarist; 31/05/2012 22:26.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347817
31/05/2012 22:40
31/05/2012 22:40
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stockport
volumex Offline
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i work on a celica gt4 and a must is a adjustable FPR with a pressure gauge to me a gauge you can see if there is any problems and have you done the direct wiring for the fuel pump

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: volumex] #1347830
31/05/2012 23:14
31/05/2012 23:14
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Originally Posted by volumex
have you done the direct wiring for the fuel pump

Yes....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347838
31/05/2012 23:34
31/05/2012 23:34
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volumex Offline
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get a fpr with a gauge .... it will prove if there is a problem with the fuel presure

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347850
01/06/2012 00:16
01/06/2012 00:16

B
Biggenz
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If you're running up to 18 on boost, I'm sure you would have melted something by now.

Where are you measuring the afr from?

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: ] #1347874
01/06/2012 07:18
01/06/2012 07:18
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Originally Posted by Biggenz
If you're running up to 18 on boost, I'm sure you would have melted something by now.

Where are you measuring the afr from?

When my wideband bosch give way few months ago, i put my spare from the trackday Alfa - because of the heat i remount it with new bung away as possible from the turbo - where originally cat converter sits.....
My imagination said that the car don't had it's full power, but maybe cause i now there is a problem.
Had a look to the pistons when inspected sparks, and no visible worry, plugs also in good brown condition......
Today i'll try to measure fuel pressure when driving and eventually change the lambda sensor with new spare i have.....
And will capture onboard video.....
P.S - FiatEcuScan reports no fault codes, did few ecu resets......

Last edited by Ferrarist; 01/06/2012 07:21.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347882
01/06/2012 08:32
01/06/2012 08:32

D
devbod
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If you connect the ecu scanner while driving you can read the original lambda voltage while on boost. If fuelling is ok then it will read around high (around 0.8v) while boosting.

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347900
01/06/2012 09:43
01/06/2012 09:43

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Per
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I think the original lambda sensor's only at work on idle..?

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347939
01/06/2012 11:59
01/06/2012 11:59

D
devbod
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They pump out a voltage all the time once warm, just that the ecu doesn't use it on boost. Used a widget showing lambda voltage in the past to convince myself a performance problem wasnt fuel starvation.

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347953
01/06/2012 12:56
01/06/2012 12:56

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group5lancia
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If the engine was really running so lean on boost, you would have engine damage by now for sure.

If I were you I'd put the new lambda sensor in, to eliminate the sensor as being the source of the problem.

If the sensor isn't faulty: "an air leak in the intake or exhaust manifold or even a fouled spark plug, for example, will cause the lambda sensor to give a false lean indication. The sensor reacts only to the presence or absence of oxygen in the exhaust. It has no way of knowing where the extra oxygen came from. So keep that in mind when diagnosing oxygen sensor problems."

Last edited by group5lancia; 01/06/2012 12:57.
Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1347954
01/06/2012 12:57
01/06/2012 12:57

P
Per
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Yeah that's what I mean, sorry. You need a full-width lambdasensor under load.

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: ] #1347977
01/06/2012 14:20
01/06/2012 14:20
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Picture of the plugs from yesterday.....as i said pistons looks ok....
click to enlarge click to enlarge

That's my DIY intake manifold "donuts", when was on i sprayed almost 1 tube of carb cleaner around with engine idle and no change of the revs.....removed and old ones back just as precaution......
click to enlarge click to enlarge

Hour ago did fuel pressure test driving around, it's rock solid, this evening will try my spare lambda with last hope of success.....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: ] #1348008
01/06/2012 15:54
01/06/2012 15:54

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devbod
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Originally Posted by Per
Yeah that's what I mean, sorry. You need a full-width lambdasensor under load.


If you want a measure of how rich it is then yes but if you just want to know if its above/below stoich then standard will tell you. In this case if it reads rich when the wideband doesnt we know that one of the lambdas is faulty or there is an air leak between them. If both lambdas agree then the problem must be upwind of there.

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: ] #1348068
01/06/2012 20:35
01/06/2012 20:35

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Frogthedog
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Not related to your problem but your gap looks too big on your plugs. Have you gapped them at all?


Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1348083
01/06/2012 21:44
01/06/2012 21:44
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Well i'm equally happy and mad.....
Lambda sensor was faulty......it was changed few months ago because it shows wrong afr through entire revs range and idle.....and this one only between 2 - 5k rpm......idle was fine......that's confuse in the beginning of "investigation"...
Changed with my spare and it's OK......
But that's second wideband Bosch sensor in half year.....and this one was placed as far away as possible from the turbo.....i'm really mad about that......had a thought that i must start with it, but i did not expect failure so early......

Anyway happy that there is no problem anymore....

Originally Posted by Frogthedog
Not related to your problem but your gap looks too big on your plugs. Have you gapped them at all

Yes they are OK - picture lies......

Last edited by Ferrarist; 02/06/2012 14:39.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1348280
02/06/2012 14:20
02/06/2012 14:20
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The link did not work for a while, now fixed.....
Fiat Coupe AFR Test
Here is an video clip i made tonight - note that it was raining, boost lowered to 1.2, had camera in my left hand, and the road only allows second and 3th gear, without full throttle cause i don't want any extra wheelspin.....
BTW can some identify the sound present on 1:53 min of the video, it can be heard only for a second when engine on 4800 - 5k rpm????

Last edited by Ferrarist; 02/06/2012 14:39.

20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1348414
03/06/2012 10:10
03/06/2012 10:10
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After Looking at the Youtube movie I can only say: you do not have any problems with AFR during boost.


Coupé Fiat 20V Turbo Plus 1999, T19 Mitsubishi turbo
https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Freddan72] #1348417
03/06/2012 10:23
03/06/2012 10:23
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Yes - video was taken when lambda was changed, and AFR now OK, but with the old sensor readings looks horrible.


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: Ferrarist] #1349600
07/06/2012 22:09
07/06/2012 22:09

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devbod
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Just saw a document that had lots of causes of premature failure and remembered this thread. Might be worth a read see here

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: ] #1349659
08/06/2012 07:35
08/06/2012 07:35

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Frogthedog
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Bosch recommends oil consumption of less than 0.7L/1000km
Interesting!

Re: Lean AFR readings under engine load !!! [Re: ] #1349851
08/06/2012 19:13
08/06/2012 19:13
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Originally Posted by devbod
Just saw a document that had lots of causes of premature failure and remembered this thread. Might be worth a read see here

Yes, i know most of precautionary things to do, don't have only heat shield,but the sensor is about meter and half after turbo......
No oil loss..... tongue
Anyway i'm glad that it's sorted now.....


20VT - Alfa 156 2.0 - Alfa 156 Mid-Engined RWD - Locost 20VT


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