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Time for a change of direction? #1352980
19/06/2012 10:48
19/06/2012 10:48
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,127
South Cambs
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Barmybob Offline OP
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Barmybob  Offline OP
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Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,127
South Cambs
What a fantastic thread

Far too many FCCUK threads seem to be about how much power you can get from the Coupé and how much money you can make from taking a Coupé to bits. It is refreshing to see threads about restoring and bringing them back to life, or better than new in this case.

It is good to see more and more threads like this appearing on our forum and it is about time they began to challenge all the tunning, HP hero, and break them for cash threads.

When the place that is supposed to be all about loving the Coupé has more threads about destroying them than restoring them you begin to understand why the Coupé will always struggle to be regarded as a classic.

At this years Auto Italia concours event at Stanford hall there were NO Coupés entered in the concours event and far less than ten in attendance, or on display. Yes on the day the weather was bad but in the run up to the event fewer than ten people showed any interest.

I accept that the Coupé is a fantastic little track weapon and that it can be tunned for fantastic budget performance. I question though if perhaps the club, and by the term club I mean the members not the board, are driving the club in the right direction?



Gone Audi mad!
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1352987
19/06/2012 11:07
19/06/2012 11:07
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Posts: 6,192
Bristol, UK
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Hovedan Offline
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Some very salient points Bob.

I enjoy my 20vt for it's track performance, I accept it'll never be a show winner, nor do I have the expertise that Duffy shows in his incredible resto works.

However, I have promised my 7 year old daughter that she can learn to drive in Custard (my VIS). So, I'm now tied to keeping that one alive for 10 years. That's the challenge, which I am happy to undertake smile

Ultimately, every individual has the right to do whatever they want with their own cars, be it tuning, restoring to concours condition or just enjoying and keeping alive.

Thankfully, we have McMike to keep the marque going with his ever growing collection laugh

Seriously, I think there are enough folk who have a genuine passion for the car, that will ensure the marque remains.


Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1352990
19/06/2012 11:19
19/06/2012 11:19

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pstruck
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It is indeed very sad to see so many coupes being scrapped or broken for parts, but I don’t think we’re going to see much of a change in this trend, at least until the number of cars is reduced to a minimum, in the hands of passionate enthusiast and the values start to increase. It is a simple case of economics. For many owners the cost of keeping these cars going is just too high in comparison to their (current) low value.

I am a fairly new coupe owner, but I would like to think that I will keep mine going and, while I can afford it, spend the necessary time and money to improve it. I paid top money for mine, the previous owner spent a fortune on it and I think I’ve already spent considerably more than I would get back if I sold it now.

My insurance policy, like many other owners here, is a classic policy with the option to buy back the car if written off. In the event of such an incident and retaining the car then financially I would then be better off breaking it for parts. So it is completely understandable why we see this happening so often.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1352991
19/06/2012 11:20
19/06/2012 11:20
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 21,083
Chertsey in the Thames
bockers Offline
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Chertsey in the Thames
It will be a classic, of sorts, for the very reasons that there will be very few left as standard. I know they will increase in value, if a MG metro in tragic state with no engine can fetch £3k on eBay there is plenty of hope for the coupe.

Driving a white Fiesta around has made me re-think my next coupe move. Even a rat coupe has more cred than the fiesta.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1352999
19/06/2012 12:06
19/06/2012 12:06
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 239
Surrey
20vt_alex Offline
Making a profit
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Surrey
indeed bockers! just hurry up and get yours back on the road! my car is so lonely in Chertsey!!!


LE 0174
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: bockers] #1353001
19/06/2012 12:07
19/06/2012 12:07

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Roadking
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I think the Coupe will be eclipsed by other performance cars as collectors items. Collectors cars are the cars boys wanted in their teens. The Coupe always had limited appeal, and will not see the levels that Evos and Scoobies make in the future.

Given the difficulty in obtaining new spares already, breaking cars to keep others on the road will be increasingly the norm.

My TR6 was a teenage want, (as indeed was a Stag - McMikes looks love ). It was obviously a shared want, becuase they have a healthy collectors scene although to be fair they didn't have much competiton at the time. The huge advantage it has is that provided you have opposoble thumbs, most of the maintenace is easy.

I notice Escort Cossies are going for significantly more than Coupes already, despite both being 90s high performance cars. Because, IMO more teenagers wanted Cossies than Coupes.

Unlike Integrales, Cossies, Evos, Scoobies etc there is no sporting cache attached to the Coupe to raise it's profile and end up on a bedroom wall.

Unless there is a healthy collectors market there will be no interest in manufacturing spares. FIAT don't seem interested. So the odd collector who lusted after one won't be able to afford to sort one. They are expensive to maintain now, wait until spares totally dry up.

Unduly pessimistic? Possibly.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353002
19/06/2012 12:11
19/06/2012 12:11
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,123
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Cumbria
I think I must have been amongst *one* of the first to restore a coupé, at a time when people still thought £400 for one was an incredible bargain, but the money that went into it still wouldn't be recoverable if she was sold.....at the moment wink

I totally agree though Bob, it would be great if more people bought these cars as second/project vehicles and saw them as challenges/hobbies rather than a money-making venture.

It'll happen one day, and at that point the forum/club (small "c") will be here to help and support at every turn of the spanner and offer advice, guidance, sympathy and suicide counselling! laugh


[Linked Image]
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353007
19/06/2012 12:19
19/06/2012 12:19
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,794
Berlin
barnacle Offline
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Posts: 33,794
Berlin
A fiesta actually has negative street-cred...

You may recall my recent poll about how to treat my sixteen. The overwhelming vote was for 'store and fix later' but I've ignored that; I have a deep fear that if I ever put it in store it will remain there forever... so instead I've decided to sort out the paint issues and continue using it.

There will eventually be a complete rebuild, but until that time it will be on the road. Not perhaps used as much as it has been in the past (a 120 mile daily commute sees to that) but it will remain on the road.

And I agree completely with Bob - it is good to see some cases in which the car is preserved in and of itself. It's not that there's anything intrinsically wrong about searching for power and handling, but it is nice to see an original unmolested (or restored to that condition) coupe.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: bockers] #1353010
19/06/2012 12:28
19/06/2012 12:28
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,127
South Cambs
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Barmybob Offline OP
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Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,127
South Cambs
When many here have moved on to pastures new I hope to still have a coupé, preferably the one I currently own. When I first showed a Coupé to my young son and said I was going to buy one he thought I was mad! "Dad why do you want such an ugly car?" Today if I advertised my car for sale he would kick my arse, unless another Coupé was taking it's place.

Owning a Coupe has to surely be about loving them. If we just look at the expeerience in pure economic terms, owning a Coupé is madness. I am just happy to see that some amongst us are further along the madness road in terms of spending on the car. Either that ore they are taking a huge gamble on their efforts being an investment.


Gone Audi mad!
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353019
19/06/2012 13:00
19/06/2012 13:00

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cheech
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cheech
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Ive said it before a car is a liabitily not an asset.

The work Duffy has done looks great and the asking price is keen , but if you had taken car to resto shop for work i very much doubt you would break even.

When selling my 20vt6 , i had lots of interest sure it needed work and idealy repaint. Most of the people who showed a interest where from here. It all came down to price as no one wanted to pay near the asking price . So while a metro in poor state can get 3K , i dont think a like for like coupe ever will.

Im sure the coupe will be a classic but to who it will be classic is another question.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353020
19/06/2012 13:07
19/06/2012 13:07

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Roadking
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Originally Posted by Barmybob
When I first showed a Coupé to my young son and said I was going to buy one he thought I was mad! "Dad why do you want such an ugly car?"


I rest my case. Myself, Kristian and Jasgol were discussing the attraction of the Coupe, we all agreed that you don't appreciate the car until you've driven one. It is not an attractive car, (especially in LE trim wink ).

But once you drive one, it gets you love I've had 3, others own more than that now smile So it's got something, you just don't get it from looking at it! But I'm not sure that is going to be enough to make it a true collectors car.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353021
19/06/2012 13:17
19/06/2012 13:17
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,071
Southsea
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Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
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Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,071
Southsea
I'm amongst the few who've kept theirs largely standard, I've kept the same car I bought in 2007, and have no intention of selling it. I've spent thousands on preventative maintenance, a bit of paintwork and the general upkeep of my Coupe. It's been practically rebuilt, bar the engine & turbo, and rear subframe. Hopefully my Coupe will keep going for another 5 years or so before the restoration process will need to be started again.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353029
19/06/2012 13:38
19/06/2012 13:38
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,083
Alcester
mikndo69 Offline
Enjoying the ride
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Posts: 1,083
Alcester
I use my Coupe every day, all year round, I have no choice.
I don't have the luxury of a second/company car to travel to work every day (80 mile round trip).
And as money or lack of it in my wallet, I rely on people breaking Coupes and selling on.

I love what Duffy has done to his Coupe and only wished I had the time and money to do that to mine. Lets see what the future brings (Hope,pray).

I will just say that I do travel to work with a big smile on my face.


Fast as FCCUK.org
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353035
19/06/2012 13:56
19/06/2012 13:56

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Big_Muzzie
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Look at the old 70's coupes - another 20 years to go BUT one day all old Italian cars are valuable because old Italian cars are cool.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353046
19/06/2012 14:08
19/06/2012 14:08

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DanielTheManual
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DanielTheManual
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Originally Posted by Roadking
I think the Coupe will be eclipsed by other performance cars as collectors items. Collectors cars are the cars boys wanted in their teens. The Coupe always had limited appeal, and will not see the levels that Evos and Scoobies make in the future.


This is true. Despite the Coupe being superior (probably!) if I was offered the choice I'd go with an Escort Cosworth over a Coupe. Hell, I'd even pick a Mk2 XR2! It's all about nostalgia and rose-tinted specs!

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353048
19/06/2012 14:12
19/06/2012 14:12

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roly
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roly
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Originally Posted by Big_Muzzie
Look at the old 70's coupes - another 20 years to go BUT one day all old Italian cars are valuable because old Italian cars are cool.


http://autopolis.wordpress.com/2011/05/25/1983-1987-alfa-romeo-arna-nerd-meets-cheerleader/

cry

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353051
19/06/2012 14:17
19/06/2012 14:17
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,288
West Berks
skinflint Offline
I need some sleep
skinflint  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,288
West Berks
Just to illustrate the point I just saw one of these going down the road...
click to enlarge

But it looked more like this...
click to enlarge

I'm not sure what the issue is, but perhaps to have historic value, an item needs to be original, with none of the detail stripped/ changed.

Some highlights for me were seeing an original Alfasud with only a few miles on the clock, and seeing a mint Coupe just like mine at Stanford Hall with only 18,000 miles on it.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: skinflint] #1353063
19/06/2012 15:30
19/06/2012 15:30
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,794
Berlin
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Posts: 33,794
Berlin
Originally Posted by skinflint

Some highlights for me were seeing an original Alfasud with only a few miles on the clock, and seeing a mint Coupe just like mine at Stanford Hall with only 18,000 miles on it.


Now you lost me right there. Every time I read in the classic car magazines of some 'treasure' of a forty year old Ferrari[*] with only three thousand miles on the clock, it makes me want to throw the magazine out of a window.

Cars are for *driving*. I don't care if it's the rarest, or oldest, or most expensive car in the world; if it's not driven it's nothing more than pretty metal. Low mileage (old) cars are pointless.

[*] Other aspirational cars are available.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: barnacle] #1353071
19/06/2012 16:27
19/06/2012 16:27
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,192
Bristol, UK
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Hovedan Offline
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Bristol, UK
Originally Posted by barnacle

Cars are for *driving*. I don't care if it's the rarest, or oldest, or most expensive car in the world; if it's not driven it's nothing more than pretty metal. Low mileage (old) cars are pointless.


Couldn't agree more Neil. A suitably fantastic comment in response to the fantastic thread on Duffys car!!

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353073
19/06/2012 16:44
19/06/2012 16:44
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,288
West Berks
skinflint Offline
I need some sleep
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Posts: 3,288
West Berks
I partly agree with you. There's nothing too special about a mint, low mileage Ferrari. They're all like that anyway.

The difference with the low mileage Coupe was being able to see the original finish on all the engine parts.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353087
19/06/2012 17:10
19/06/2012 17:10
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,799
In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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In the coupe.
I see where you are coming from Bob. I like the standard coupe and have two low mileage examples. They both need work doing on them but nothing urgent. I hope to be driving mine for the next 20 years at least. Value ? Classic ? Rare ? I dont care one bit what they become.
I know i am lucky to be in a position that gives me the space and freedom to enjoy them. Thats all been worked for in the past.
In respose to your tuning comments,well you answerd it yourself ( They are a usfull track weapon).
The thrill of takeing my coupe on track is fantastic,hence me also building a high horsepower track coupe.
The best of both worlds really.
No doubt something will come along a feck it all up for me,but at the moment my standard coupes are very enjoyable.

Last edited by magooagain; 19/06/2012 17:10.


Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353088
19/06/2012 17:13
19/06/2012 17:13

K
knight7660
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knight7660
Unregistered
K



I agree with this but the main reason the coupe will be eclipsed is because the tuning scene. More people see the other cars ie evos, cosworth and subarus etc with the potential that car gives them. I'm all up for the track action and the rising of the tuning ability because it causes gossip amongst the other forums. Since sparco started the time attack and then moved onto SMRC plus the other coupes kicking around more and more all over the country hounding drivers out the way I hear it more and more from friends as the year goes on and people are seeing the Coupe in a different light, even on here where someone posted a link to the VXR forum where somebody was writing and comparing the coupe to an Astra and all they could say was the Astra was a nicer drive etc which is funny when the Astra is cheap plastic styling.

So in my eyes more the better. More publicity and more people will follow into the coupe fold.

Sorry if the post is abit disjointed this is due to sending it on the phone and I can't see the thread.

Originally Posted by Roadking
I think the Coupe will be eclipsed by other performance cars as collectors items. Collectors cars are the cars boys wanted in their teens. The Coupe always had limited appeal, and will not see the levels that Evos and Scoobies make in the future.

Given the difficulty in obtaining new spares already, breaking cars to keep others on the road will be increasingly the norm.

My TR6 was a teenage want, (as indeed was a Stag - McMikes looks love ). It was obviously a shared want, becuase they have a healthy collectors scene although to be fair they didn't have much competiton at the time. The huge advantage it has is that provided you have opposoble thumbs, most of the maintenace is easy.

I notice Escort Cossies are going for significantly more than Coupes already, despite both being 90s high performance cars. Because, IMO more teenagers wanted Cossies than Coupes.

Unlike Integrales, Cossies, Evos, Scoobies etc there is no sporting cache attached to the Coupe to raise it's profile and end up on a bedroom wall.

Unless there is a healthy collectors market there will be no interest in manufacturing spares. FIAT don't seem interested. So the odd collector who lusted after one won't be able to afford to sort one. They are expensive to maintain now, wait until spares totally dry up.

Unduly pessimistic? Possibly.

Last edited by knight7660; 19/06/2012 20:54.
Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: mikndo69] #1353098
19/06/2012 17:52
19/06/2012 17:52

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MABR
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MABR
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M



Originally Posted by mikndo69
I use my Coupe every day, all year round, I have no choice.
I don't have the luxury of a second/company car to travel to work every day (80 mile round trip).
And as money or lack of it in my wallet, I rely on people breaking Coupes and selling on.

I love what Duffy has done to his Coupe and only wished I had the time and money to do that to mine. Lets see what the future brings (Hope,pray).

I will just say that I do travel to work with a big smile on my face.


Apart from the 80 round trip to work, I'm in the same position. I've had mine for over 5 years now and for me it's now a keeper.

I fell out of love with it a while ago and nearly changed to an MX5 but saw the light in time and haven't looked back since.

Reliability is everything for me and this car has let me down less than 5 times in 5 years and even then they were easy fixes.

The one thing I have decided is to get my car to my specification. It's recently been remapped by FC Performance and this has persuaded me that I really don't need any more power. I'm planning a few individual styling touches and a decent stereo upgrade and then it's just routine maintenance and restoration as required.

I don't think this car will ever reach cult status for the reasons stated by others on this Thread. However I like to think that this car is a hidden gem, known only to the privileged few who've owned one.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: Barmybob] #1353177
19/06/2012 20:41
19/06/2012 20:41

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lickyl
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lickyl
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Originally Posted by Barmybob
What a fantastic thread

Far too many FCCUK threads seem to be about how much power you can get from the Coupé and how much money you can make from taking a Coupé to bits. It is refreshing to see threads about restoring and bringing them back to life, or better than new in this case.

It is good to see more and more threads like this appearing on our forum and it is about time they began to challenge all the tunning, HP hero, and break them for cash threads.

When the place that is supposed to be all about loving the Coupé has more threads about destroying them than restoring them you begin to understand why the Coupé will always struggle to be regarded as a classic.

At this years Auto Italia concours event at Stanford hall there were NO Coupés entered in the concours event and far less than ten in attendance, or on display. Yes on the day the weather was bad but in the run up to the event fewer than ten people showed any interest.

I accept that the Coupé is a fantastic little track weapon and that it can be tunned for fantastic budget performance. I question though if perhaps the club, and by the term club I mean the members not the board, are driving the club in the right direction?

This is why I stopped coming on this forum because all people talk about is power, then when the car is broken break it to get their money back, I for one hope this forum can start to go in the direction the coupe deserves, it is a classic in the making and some day prices will rise.
And it's so not in the same class as scoobys and evo's they are chav cars the coupe is an Italian GT and deserves respect it's a modernish fiat Dino coupe (for those that know what they are without Google).
You should never own a car like the coupe if you can't afford to lose money on it, they are not there for sensible people they are there to be loved and driven by real petrol heads. wink

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353178
19/06/2012 20:42
19/06/2012 20:42

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lickyl
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Oh and well said Bob

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353181
19/06/2012 20:44
19/06/2012 20:44

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tim42
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tim42
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T



Originally Posted by lickyl
Originally Posted by Barmybob
What a fantastic thread

Far too many FCCUK threads seem to be about how much power you can get from the Coupé and how much money you can make from taking a Coupé to bits. It is refreshing to see threads about restoring and bringing them back to life, or better than new in this case.

It is good to see more and more threads like this appearing on our forum and it is about time they began to challenge all the tunning, HP hero, and break them for cash threads.

When the place that is supposed to be all about loving the Coupé has more threads about destroying them than restoring them you begin to understand why the Coupé will always struggle to be regarded as a classic.

At this years Auto Italia concours event at Stanford hall there were NO Coupés entered in the concours event and far less than ten in attendance, or on display. Yes on the day the weather was bad but in the run up to the event fewer than ten people showed any interest.

I accept that the Coupé is a fantastic little track weapon and that it can be tunned for fantastic budget performance. I question though if perhaps the club, and by the term club I mean the members not the board, are driving the club in the right direction?

This is why I stopped coming on this forum because all people talk about is power, then when the car is broken break it to get their money back, I for one hope this forum can start to go in the direction the coupe deserves, it is a classic in the making and some day prices will rise.
And it's so not in the same class as scoobys and evo's they are chav cars the coupe is an Italian GT and deserves respect it's a modernish fiat Dino coupe (for those that know what they are without Google).
You should never own a car like the coupe if you can't afford to lose money on it, they are not there for sensible people they are there to be loved and driven by real petrol heads. wink


Amen for that.... that's why I have 3 love and am VERY poor crazy thumb

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353189
19/06/2012 21:18
19/06/2012 21:18

1
124coupe
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124coupe
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Originally Posted by Big_Muzzie
Look at the old 70's coupes - another 20 years to go BUT one day all old Italian cars are valuable because old Italian cars are cool.


Afraid not, my collection of 60s' and 70s' coupes' and spiders' are not worth a fortune

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353194
19/06/2012 21:28
19/06/2012 21:28

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Roadking
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Roadking
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Originally Posted by lickyl
Italian GT and deserves respect it's a modernish fiat Dino coupe


I do. And they're not.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353195
19/06/2012 21:31
19/06/2012 21:31

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lickyl
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Just because it's Italian does not make it garanteed to be worth a fotune, I do believe that the coupe will start to rise in price in time, look at the Lancia beta coupe until recently a realy nice one was still not worth anything, then slowly they start to creep up in price, now a nice on will fetch 5K not a fortune but better than a few years ago, give the coupe time, make sure it gets the right owners and the market and buyer will see it in the right light and start paying money for them, more club owners need start asking good money for their good coupes as Duffy has, and not be affraid to pay good money when someone asks alot for a good coupe.

Re: Time for a change of direction? [Re: ] #1353212
19/06/2012 21:52
19/06/2012 21:52

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Roadking
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I hope they do, after all I've got one! I also had a Lancia Beta HPE love

However the classic car mags have discussed the problems of the complexity of modern(ish) cars (ecus, cats, electronic gadgets, specialist tools), compared with older cars means that the cost of keeping them on the road will be prohibitive, with serious difficulty getting some or even most spares. Unless there is a sufficiently large coupe classic scene, or unless they become seriously valuable, I think it's unlikely spares will be manufactured in the same way as they are currently for old Brit sports cars (large market, simple engineering) or for exotica (small market, big money).

Another concern is the constant threat of classics being pushed off the roads by Euro legislation.

But then if I was looking for an investment it would have been something already a classic.

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