2.4 or not ???

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Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138910 26/06/2006 20:13 26/06/2006 20:13
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Thought it was exactly the same block with slightly different volume... What for the stilo blocks are higher when you can have 2.4 with the coupe blocks

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138911 26/06/2006 20:33 26/06/2006 20:33
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst Begbie Ex El Presidente
Begbie Ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst	No the stilo block is taller by X amount. I think there are subtle differences, but i cant quite remember, and the bits i can remember im not going to announce as this is down to Barbz Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138912 27/06/2006 00:49 27/06/2006 00:49
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Before you so smartly use the emoticon please re-read my post to answer your question of why?.Thanks. Theres always a way of fitting it,you just gotta use a bit of imagination and determination. Oh and custom made engine mounts arent that expensive.They are just machined from an aluminium or steel slug/blank.This doesnt cost that much. You might not do things like this,but others do. Just think of it that way.Anything is possible if you just use your imagination and a bit of determination.It can be done. Last edited by paddy147; 27/06/2006 00:56.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138913 27/06/2006 01:11 27/06/2006 01:11
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst Begbie Ex El Presidente
Begbie Ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst	So lowering the block by 6cm is going to make that much of difference with the CoG? Please show me evidence of what difference 6cm makes. Then you also run into problems of the sump / downpipe being closer to the floor, then you also have to worry about the inner driveshafts (both sides) catching / sitting on the subframe, so then have to customise the front subframe to be able to clear the driveshafts, then boost hoses, water hoses, gearbox linkages, slave cylinder hoses etc... Quote: You might not do things like this,but others do. So its really cost vs functionality, cost of lowering an engine by 6cm vs something that wont make much difference, i know which i will choose thanks very much Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138914 27/06/2006 01:12 27/06/2006 01:12
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	but if you lower the engine changes are the sump and down pipe will run a bit close to either the ground or the sub frame or each other. Personally I think a bonnet bulgde could be hidden quite well, if you look at the LMA eurosaloons site at tony Soper's GTV you cant easily tell from the bics but tha bonnet is a few inches higher throughout the midle as it has been built up in fibre glass in the middle to clear the throttle bodies, Anyway this is all talk really I cant see anyone really doing this. rich

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138915 27/06/2006 14:11 27/06/2006 14:11
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Lowering the engine will do the driveshaft angles few favour - we raised the engine in the kappa, then dropped the rest of the car back down so the engine was in the same place relative to the ground (as are the hub centres), but the rest of the car is lower

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138916 27/06/2006 19:30 27/06/2006 19:30
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Taz - you could always look out for a 2nd hand engine mate? Assuming you're in no major hurry to get the car back on the road?

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138917 28/06/2006 03:24 28/06/2006 03:24
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	cheers Suba, not sounding snobbish, but I can never trust a 2nd hand engine,considering the cost etc, mine was one owner & still fell to bits... either it'll be uprated / scrapped no other choice.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138918 29/06/2006 04:41 29/06/2006 04:41
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	half the point of the 2.4 & 2.5 conversions Barbz does is that you don't need to source a Stilo abarth or Kappa block as the conversion uses the original 2.0 20VT block. So the fitting of the block is no issue as it is still a 20VT Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138919 29/06/2006 16:22 29/06/2006 16:22
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	fair enough - I came to the same conclusion a while back mate.... good luck.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138920 03/07/2006 05:52 03/07/2006 05:52
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	decision made, lots of bits soon for sale, NEW GT28R turbo, block, head, 2.5" custom downpipe, front calipers, discs, uprated rad, poss side mount IC..... only money few other bits I cannot recall.... spent a lot of time thinking about it.......I'll never recoup my dosh & waste of time torching it, & don't want to let it go ( yet ) cheers Taz

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138921 03/07/2006 06:57 03/07/2006 06:57
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	And the decision was

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138922 03/07/2006 16:28 03/07/2006 16:28
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Taz , bet you're going for a 2.6...... I didn't think that particular love affair was quite ready to end joe

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138923 03/07/2006 16:30 03/07/2006 16:30
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,576 Glasgow,Near Florence..If only... paul My life on the forum
paul My life on the forum Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,576 Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...	Quote: decision made, lots of bits soon for sale, NEW GT28R turbo, block, head, 2.5" custom downpipe, front calipers, discs, uprated rad, poss side mount IC..... only money few other bits I cannot recall.... spent a lot of time thinking about it.......I'll never recoup my dosh & waste of time torching it, & don't want to let it go ( yet ) cheers Taz would these be standard front brake bits for sale or `fancy` big RED affairs ? was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138924 04/07/2006 04:48 04/07/2006 04:48
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Taz , bet you're going for a 2.6...... I didn't think that particular love affair was quite ready to end joe nah, just a tad under 2.5 ( Barbz now has his instructions & a spare block is being bored then built up, should be ready in 6 weeks. oddly enough, I talked at length aboutr the ECU probs, as I want to keep my OE ECU & cannot see the gain in spending 10K on a motec. Barbz actually noted the FIAT ECU is miles better than the Motec & actually can adapt quicker, it's just that the mapping is difficult as nobody has really looked into it.. but I have a plan Taz

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138925 04/07/2006 05:12 04/07/2006 05:12
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe Flea Forum is my life
Flea Forum is my life Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe	If we are on the same page Taz, I have thought about doing this with the 2 litre and bigger injectors If it works for the VAG boys then no reason we can't do it on the coupé

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138926 04/07/2006 05:56 04/07/2006 05:56
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: oddly enough, I talked at length aboutr the ECU probs, as I want to keep my OE ECU & cannot see the gain in spending 10K on a motec. Barbz actually noted the FIAT ECU is miles better than the Motec & actually can adapt quicker, it's just that the mapping is difficult as nobody has really looked into it.. but I have a plan Taz Well I’ll tell you what I found when trying to use my original ECU. There are not enough fuelling points within the map itself. Which means you can only change a certain amount of points within the rpm range can't remember the number as it all has to add up to complete the map. Meaning that you could map the car perfect through the mid and top end of the rev range but as you have run out of fuelling points the low end/idle will run very lumpy and visa versa. This in my opinion is a dangerous risk to take for a highly modded engine that requires precision engine management. The parameters within the original Fiat map just doesn’t let you push the engine to it's full potential especially as it would still require you to use an AFM and barometer which is a very inaccurate way of measuring pressure/air flow. If you have found a way of doing this then I would be very shocked as I feel the electronics hardware are not good enough no matter what software and mapper you use. Hope this info helps.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138927 04/07/2006 12:30 04/07/2006 12:30
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 286 Germany Stichl Making a profit
Stichl Making a profit Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 286 Germany	Quote: Quote: oddly enough, I talked at length aboutr the ECU probs, as I want to keep my OE ECU & cannot see the gain in spending 10K on a motec. Barbz actually noted the FIAT ECU is miles better than the Motec & actually can adapt quicker, it's just that the mapping is difficult as nobody has really looked into it.. but I have a plan Taz Well I’ll tell you what I found when trying to use my original ECU. There are not enough fuelling points within the map itself. Which means you can only change a certain amount of points within the rpm range can't remember the number as it all has to add up to complete the map. Meaning that you could map the car perfect through the mid and top end of the rev range but as you have run out of fuelling points the low end/idle will run very lumpy and visa versa. This in my opinion is a dangerous risk to take for a highly modded engine that requires precision engine management. The parameters within the original Fiat map just doesn’t let you push the engine to it's full potential especially as it would still require you to use an AFM and barometer which is a very inaccurate way of measuring pressure/air flow. If you have found a way of doing this then I would be very shocked as I feel the electronics hardware are not good enough no matter what software and mapper you use. Hope this info helps. This answer is partially correct, only. The original ECU is capable to handle more than 400 HP. You will have one limiting factor, only - the AFM. The original AFM will limit at about 850kg/h air – this is good for about 310HP. Therefore the ECU will see 5V only from AFM, if reaching high revs with more than 310HP… Therefore the ECU cannot adjust the amount of fuel correctly... There is one possibility to avoid this problem – take a bigger AFM – for example Bosch 0 280 217 801. This AFM will be capable to handle about 450HP. You will have one problem – you have to remap the original ECU completely – this is a lot of work – but you will see, that you can reach 450HP with original ECU as well… PS: In Germany there is one coupe with 460HP and original ECU + bigger AFM. My coupe (397HP) has the original ECU installed as well – but I have problems with WOT because of the limiting original AFM – therefore I will try a bigger AFM as well Juergen 20VT coupegrale 4x4

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138928 05/07/2006 05:29 05/07/2006 05:29
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	That sounds plausible but I would still go for a stand alone unit as the cost of doing this may still work out more expensive. UNLESS you are mapping the car yourself to write a map from scratch will cost a lot of time in labour. The original Fiat map will probably only have about 30% scope within the parameters set, as were talking about serious power the map would have to be fully re-written from scratch costing est below: 1) Brand new compatible AFM as suggested est £200 2) Compatible fuel injectors that can flow over 450BHP £? 3) Software to rewrite map to Fiat coupe £250 4) At least 5 hours mapping to write a complete map £450 TOTAL COST £900+ A good Standalone ECU starts from £700 It's still not going to be as good as a standalone unit and there are no guarantees that it will work and even if it does I don’t feel it will be very accurate at control vital levels such as boost and fuelling etc. If it really was that simple and cost effective wouldn't everyone be doing this? Anyway I hope you can prove me wrong but I will say good luck.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138929 05/07/2006 14:22 05/07/2006 14:22
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	I can't think of a good standalone ECU for £700 that can support 5 cylinder sequential injection with a coilpack per cylinder. Let alone one with a range of reputable dealers to support it. With a standalone ECU most of the money is involved in setting it up. Aside from Motec there are very few ECUs that can support our engines and have a decent range of dealer support. Maybe the Pectel T6 has enough support or one of the AEM ecus. Using a different MAF then even if the ECU doesn't have enough breakpoints (and I think it does) there are other ways to overcome this problem - if you look at the Cossies/16VT/integrales' Weber set up they have nothing like the flexibility of our ECU yet they are able to remap them to 500BHP+ I personally know exactly how I would sort out the fuelling and ignition advance issues without using an aftermarket ECU. Even though I did that was more down to time than anything else/ John Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138930 05/07/2006 15:19 05/07/2006 15:19
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst Begbie Ex El Presidente
Begbie Ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst	Quote: if you look at the Cossies/16VT/integrales' Weber set up they have nothing like the flexibility of our ECU yet they are able to remap them to 500BHP+ Well with only 16rpm breakpoints and the fact it cant read over 7500rpm+ makes the option of going to standalone ECU a easy decision Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138931 05/07/2006 16:12 05/07/2006 16:12
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	At PTS I looked at changing the fuelling and ignition maps to run with bigger injectors, and if you are going to do this, then it is also easy to run with a bigger AFM. If you match the AFM size with the injectors, you may not be a million miles away with the actual map.... (aside from a few other bits and bobs) However as said above its the time and cost involved. The cheapest way would probably be the next generation Unichip with separate support for injectors plus Maf support , but I don't know if its even available in the UK yet. Agree with Jeurgen, I find my MAF maxxes out about 300bhp or so. joe

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138932 05/07/2006 17:35 05/07/2006 17:35
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	When i first ran my 2.4 on the standard ECU the airflow meter was out of range by about 3400rpm or something stupid like that. I was only running 0.6 bar boost as well. We did get my car fuelling relatively ok on a std ECU with grale injectors temporarily when I had to do TOTB3 qualifying - made a 13.4s pass on 0.8 bar boost if I remember correctly. That was without even remapping the Unichip that I was using at the time.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138933 05/07/2006 18:13 05/07/2006 18:13
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: I can't think of a good standalone ECU for £700 that can support 5 cylinder sequential injection with a coilpack per cylinder. Let alone one with a range of reputable dealers to support it. I can i got my DTA P8 PRO for £650 this supprots everything and is a great managment for the 20V Turbo.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138934 05/07/2006 18:24 05/07/2006 18:24
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	You can buy a VEMS 3.3 for about £450. Backside would be that there's no official support/reseller that can help you out. Even though I think the Wiki community seems to work quite well for most people. Afterall it's a cheap and very powerful management system with great potential since you can continue to develop the unit (both HW and SW).

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138935 05/07/2006 19:43 05/07/2006 19:43
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	Quote: Quote: I can't think of a good standalone ECU for £700 that can support 5 cylinder sequential injection with a coilpack per cylinder. Let alone one with a range of reputable dealers to support it. I can i got my DTA P8 PRO for £650 this supprots everything and is a great managment for the 20V Turbo. Yeah fair enough the DTA P8 does support everything you need more or less. The cold start would never be as good as OE as it is an arbitrary compensation rather than a whole seperate map of differences and a seperate throttle position map, but that is actually a weakness of most aftermarket engine management systems. The effect is just that it's possibly a bit lumpy and a bit on/off until the coolant is at a given preset temperature.

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138936 06/07/2006 04:57 06/07/2006 04:57
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	well, we'll see what happens guys. Thanks for the input as i really am looking at matching a MUCH larger AFM to the engine, this should keep all in proportion, but then again, this is a bit of an experiment either way, we'll find out in a few short weeks so will my wallet

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138937 18/08/2006 04:07 18/08/2006 04:07
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	quick update, well, for those that may be interested.... hmm..... lots of choices & it actually looks a bit daunting.... prob is the engine will be too much for the coop..... brakes are now being made up ( F40 calipers ) as the OE that I have, with Pagids are good, but won't cut it.... clutch.....this could be a real pain, I may have to go for a double type, or a costly single plate unsprung....not too keen & bit of research is still needed, as I REALLY REALLY want a big block coop, that CAN actually pootle about town, surely this IS the goal of a GOOD conversion basic build of the block is now going ahead, but alas, the Manifold is going to be a major Mission to overcome, I may even see if one of the bods at work can make up a standard carbon steel tubular one ( stainless will just workharden then fall to bits ). then we have the ECU, in theory it should work, but I've been told I may have to DTA / Motec budget it..... Barbz did even try to convince me to go back to a tuned 2.0l lump, I thought for it for a millisecon, then thought.... you only live once & I'll always regret it if I never go ahead.......so fcuuk it... let the games begin. ....well that is once CP pistons send the correct ones !! I won't even go into the front / rear subframe mods, seam welding & bushes, engine mounts etc oh dear, the cost is not looking good

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138938 18/08/2006 04:19 18/08/2006 04:19
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	you just know this will end in tears, get the box of matches ready

Re: 2.4 or not ??? #138939 18/08/2006 04:22 18/08/2006 04:22
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,576 Glasgow,Near Florence..If only... paul My life on the forum
paul My life on the forum Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,576 Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...	hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm chin up Taz,we all go thro` this half way thro a big budget mod session (and a 2.4 is about as big as it gets ),I`m actually writing a list of what needs done on my coupe during the winter(now i`ve bought a 2nd car)upgraded gt28rs(modified by Barbz),ditch V Band,maybe try to hard pipe the bigger boost hoses,bigger injectors....so long as they are not a pig in traffic, remap,and anything else that can be done to squeeze more (reliable and useable)power out of my 2 ltr lump,I seriously thought about going 2.4 (still not given it up) but I spent a fair bit on forged pistons, balancing,headwork ,etc. etc.and it has all proved very reliable.............genius that Barbz man it seems a shame to change it all again before I fully explore what I`ve got,so I will `invest` some money on new engine/gearbox mounts,driveshafts.and bigger front brakes too............so stick with it...ya know ya want too .....................oh and you can let Barbz know he will be seeing my car again fairly soon was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not

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