How easy will the Alfa 330mm brakes fit, i.e. Calipers etc.?

Also; could the 166 310mm disc's fit into our calipers maybe..?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alfa-166-3-2-v...=item439acec13f

Their inner diameter is also smaller so overall the area is substantially larger. (If one could find oversized Carbotech pads Bob would certainly be my uncle..?)

They should be pretty simple i think. I believe he original 305 calipers on a GTA the same as the coupe. You would just need the upgrade kit with some suitable discs.

However unless you can get some secondhand it will probably be easier and cheaper to get an off the shelf kit from another source.

I also think you need to make sure you get the caliper from the 156/147/GT as I think the later 159 etc have different (radial) mounts.

the Alfa Romeo 330mm calipers bolt on as the bolt diameter is the same.

166 Brembos will not fit.

As for the 166 Disc's fitting, this will need to be trial and error.

one thing with the 330mm brembos, you will need to change your wheels as they do not fit under standard coupe wheels.

Do you have to change the brake hose/line?

standard brake pipes from the coupe should fit as there the same fitment!

Thanks for the input.


Yes, that's a good reason to try & fit the 310mm ones which fits inside the 16" wheels, incl. some trial&error.. But I like that sort of thing.

Pic of the disc's, Alfa 166 left and Coupe 20VT right:

could be worth a shout mate!

marco is the 330mm calipers pretty much a bolt on replacement then ? and i take it we could either get 2 piece discs made or re drill alfa ones to suit out stud pattern

whats a very very rough ballpark figure for doing this ?

Will the 166 disc fit over the coupe hub? The 166 disc is 10mm less diameter than the coupe disc on the hub mounting face.

Yes they should be, there is an upgrade kit available for the GTA to go from 305 to 330 and the mounts are the same. If your sourcing caliper you need to make sure they arent for a newer model which have different mounts. Also you will need suitable 17" alloys. Not sure on the disks.

I saw that MTEC sells GTA discs (330mm). Maybe they can send discs with Fiat Coupé bolt pattern.

330 discs is damn heavy, and it's pointless upgrade if not on 4x4 Coupe or at least above 400HP and trackdays a lot......
Useful brembo "upgrade" is 310mm discs with Alfa 166 Brembos, Alfa 145 1.9JTD bigger hubs and custom plate between the hub and the caliper.

I wrote it some time ago LANCIA DELTA III TBI has 330 mm disc brake's with 4 stud hole !!!! 4x98 even :-D

I only have ca 340hp but I run out of brakes anyway.. (I have the most hardcore 305mm setup already) so I need something more. Or I have to back off on the track but that's just no fun!

I'm thinking about the 310mm Alfa 166 disc's with Coupe calipers as I don't want to change wheel size, however I'm still not sure it will be worth it. But MTEC have them anyway:
http://www.mtecbrakes.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=1099
They're even a bit cheaper!

what makes the alfas discs that much of an upgrade with only 5mm per ? is there something else going on that makes them better and i assume we would have to redril those to 4x98

the lancia setup sounds good but whats the chances of finding stuff for it ?

an old library pic, but I had these made up by barbz ages ago, uses the Alfa Calipers ( straight fit ), although I got rid of the Alfa logo later on for a Brembo one !



and how it looks...

It isn't! Just a little, probably. But you could keep the std wheels w existing R-tires on.

Taz: are those custommade alu-hubs? If so were they fitted offset from the std position and how did you solve the caliper position?

Having swapped from 305 to 330s on my GTA I would say it not a pointless upgrade at all. They inspire much more confidence. I guess it depends on your requirements but I cant ever see better brakes as pointless....

Per, yes mate, the alu' bells are custom, but they weren't perfect, as I had to shave a tad off the inner face of the pads to avoid it rubbing on the bell lip, a bit of a pain, but the pad surface is not affected, just the edge of the backing plate

Yes for sure there is much more confidence......and if brakes on some car is bad - better brakes upgrade is not pointless......
But it's pointless upgrade if tyres can not handle more braking force and slide anyway.....because there is a point where if OE brake system is fine and OK, it can offer more that tires can "grip".......good discs and pads IMO is OK for OE Coupe calipers if running standard tires......if semi's used then upgrade is good......
So maybe people must first be sure that there is still a problem when appropriate discs and pads is used, and only then upgrade to bigger calipers....
My point of view......

Very true!
thanks for the Lancia Delta 330mm advice!
http://bit.ly/X8LB0C
Very nice, all bolt-on then!

Taz, i have the same calipers as you..and yes, with the aformentioned alfa logo
how did you remove it on yours ?
or was it a straight re paint re sticker job ?

The car is down a Barbz,so i can`t check,I`m guessing the Alfa sticker is under the laquer so can`t be `polished /cut ` off

I removed my 330mm alfa stickers by rubbing them down before painting with caliper paint, then applied brembo sticker then lacquered.

They were are now gloss black with silver brembo decals, with NASCAR two piece discs and pagid yellows its all for sale .....but not cheap

Go lovely on a steel grey per.....

Oh go on ship it over now!
I cannot promise I wouldn't paint them BLUE with that classic tall FIAT logo in white...

(it's Valentine's day..?)

(oh that's a different thing, ok.)

Valentines day eh

I was talking about this disc rotor 330x28m 4stud) about year ago ...but nobody was listen

What? Did someone say something?

so with the bigger rotors from the lancia .... we would just need a new caliper mount and use our existing calipers ?

:-D I'm almost sure.

Whats the thickness of the lancia discs?

28mm i think

No - the point is to use the Alfa GT 3.2 (or GTA 330mm) calipers, these are bolt on. The Coupe calipers would not fit.

They're exactly like the Alfa 330mm, only with Fiat 4x98mm pattern!

They are not the same as GTA 330 *32 , and this one is 28 mm:) that's men that coupe caliper + adapter's

Spec for alfa GTA 330 -> 330mm x 32 thickness ; 5x98
lancia delta III tbi -> 330mm x 28 thickness ; 4x98

Ok am I right in thinking there are two options for a 330mm set up and both require larger alloys?

1) Alfa gt or gta 3.2 caliper and 330mm discs. Discs require redrilling to 4 stud but calipers are a straight fit.

2) Lancia Delta III 330mm discs and Coupe Brembo calipers. The discs are a straight fit but the calipers require a bespoke spacer. I think it's these 330mm x 28mm discs. If so they look to have identical dimensions to the 20VT brembos with the exception of being 330mm over 305mm.

I looked at the 166 3.0 discs and I'm not sure they will work. The centre diameter is 0.5mm smaller and overall height is 1.3mm taller meaning the disc would sit further away from the middle of the hub towards the engine. I think this would result in uneven wear of the disc and pads.

Ouch forgot the thickness difference..

:-P Too much coffe or butter hehe

if you could get those lancia discs drilled they would suit the le style discs and at 330mm looks like a serious piece of kit for not alot of money , so just an adapter plate is needed ?

wont matter for me i bought some cheap discs n pads to use just now till i work out what to upgrade too

Anyone thinking of doing this upgrade?

I've design an adaptor to fit the brembo calipers with 330mm discs.

[img]http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/864/calew.jpg[/img]

I'm waiting for 1 or 2 dimensions to be sure it will fit to original bracket .

Then I will ask for a price for a pair of this kind (the design will be different for right and Left wheel)

Can you send drawing to me? Pretty please

Once the prototype is ok, I will share it for free yes (but I want to have the first model on ).

For now there wouldn't be any interest as I know some dimensions are wrong.

It should be machined in an 7000 series aluminium (for mechanical resistance).
Maybe a heat shield will be needed for trackday enthusiasts

The thickness will be between 25mm and 30mm to be able to bolt it to the originl bracket with the same torque without breaking the thread (as the aluminium is softer than steel).

A have already the 286mm(16VT)/305mm(20VT)/330mm(delta844) discs modelized on CAD.

This is the dimensions I need :

[img]http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/5500/dsc003783.jpg[/img]

The green one should be 130mm and M12*1.75

The red one...I'm still waiting for it.

It must be taken from the green line to the lower part of the pad (in contact with the disc).

Then I need the height of the pad at the middle and it will be good

Don't hesitate to reply if you have brembo's on your table

How much have you moved the holes in the bracket?
12.5 mm?

You mean from radius to radius?

More than that.

It's about 16 or 20mm so center to center should be around 30mm

oh one more thing 16v/vt 284 diameter ;-)

Sorry I missed that you have 16vt. It should be 23 mm for you.

I.m not planing to change brakes , but for 16 vt user i found other way.

Diffrent idea for 16VT brake upgrade
Caliper from brera (they are 28mm disc ready) they've got longer disc pad 130mm but they are radial mount ( something like this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/pascs/alfa/brakes/Brembofront.jpg ). You will ask why..this type is more popular.

It's more complicated than that.

The calipers are not the same and the mounting points are different from 16vt and 20vt.

I can't just offset the holes by X millimeters.

Can you take a pic of the mounting holes?

Does it look like this Alfa GTV Turbo?

Yes the mounting holes are like this.

I have (with a couple of french coupe owners) design the adapter...I will try it in a few days and make the modification if necessary.

The first model will be for 20vt hub (it was easier to design at first time).

For now the adapter look like this.

how much $$$ this adapters?

It should be under 150€ for the 2 adapters (left and right)

why not go the whole hog like my brothers celica http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m508/louieuk/st185/P1080008.jpg

sorry for a slight off topic hi-jack but I have the alfa conversion and was wondering where you can get 2 piece 330 rotors (in 5x98 pcd)

cheers

The tarox kit is a very good one, but it cost at least 1000€ for the 330mm kit.

Now we are speaking about 300€ with brake discs and adapters.

It won't be as powerfull as the tarox kit but it's a good option for fast road/track enthusiast at a lower cost

Nice!! Send a drawing to me when you are finished
And please add pics after installation.

Bump !

I've taken a few photos of the caliper adapter to show you the actual (aluminium) protoype for 16VT with brembo and 330mm discs.

The 20vt version should be ready soon

It's not the final version, the last one may be in 3 pieces and in stainless steel (stronger, cheaper and easier to build).

[img]http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2115/71da.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8463/8o20.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/199/p91m.jpg[/img]

Any comments?

Look nice, but i think that they are a litle bit off center on the caliper. but maybe the photo only. Please rethink radial mount calliper from brera or other they are much common and they've got longer (larger) brake pads.

It's not the photo, the calipers are actually not perfectly centered because the face of the adapter is sitting on the rough part of the original mounting bracket (the adapter is a little bit too big...)

About radials, yes, it would be easier but it's twice the price of standard fiat coupe brembo calipers (which is suppose to be "low cost" and the original idea was to propose an adapter plate to mount 330mm discs without changing anything else on 20vt, it should be ready before christmas).

In 16VT case its not a problem beacause you must buy anyway.

Good work, keep it up!

Seems a bit of a waste if you don't use the whole disc.

Nice!

Now time for a road test.

good effort but as above, if the caliper and pad are the same, is there really much of a point? OK, braking at the extremity of a disk may be mechanically 'easier' but is this proven in practice?

In terms of design, it worries me when brakes are meddled with. Id be making sure that any inside corners have a radius to avoid stress risers.

Pads are the second place or even third when you are talking about the braking most important is disc size this is all about power lever.
In 20VT youve got caliper, but for 16VT you must buy some brembo caliper in my personal opinion the best choice is brake caliper from Brera (for example). They've got radial mount ,and longer brake pad it,s 10mm longer if im correct.

In france these kinds of calipers are sold between 300-350£ without pads so it's not a cheap conversion


It is and it's not.
The whole discs offeers more surface to cool down which should avoid the original disc bend under hard braking.


Of course, if you apply the same resistive force at a further point from the center of rotation of the wheel, the braking power will be proportionnal (here +-8% more).


The pad surface is not related to braking power but with heat at the contact pads/discs.
Only the pistons diameter are related to the caliper "braking force capacity".
If the brera have the same pistons calipers as the fiat coupe 20v turbo, then it's stopping capacity is the same.

i don't understand how a short brake pad offer the
same friction of a longer braking pad

it's like to say a widest tyre offer the same grip
of a short one

It still is a waste if you're looking for more braking power. Only for cooling it's not worth it.

The friction is linked with the force applied by the pistons of the calipers on the pads.
There is a friction limit for each pad depending on temperature. It means that even if you put more pressure (by putting bigger pistons or even higher brake pressure) on the pad, the friction factor will be at his highest point and you won't brake more.

And yes, that's the same for the tyres :

If you put like 235/40/17 track tyres at the rear of a fiat coupe, you won't be able to heat them up until a few lap, you will think it has more grip due to the wider tyre and less body roll, but it is not thanks to the grip.



It highly depends on what you put behind "worth it"

If you spend less than 150£ for 8% more braking power, no disc bending under hard conditions and much more constant braking; for me it doesn't sound as a "waste".

Also, the biggest increase is mainly for 16VT as you go from 1 floating pistons with 284*22mm discs to 4 pistons brembo with 330*28mm discs for around 450£.

A wide tyre DOES give the same grip as a narrower one....

It's all very complicated.
1 Why do we need bigger disc rotor?
Because the braking power is mostly connected with arm length ( when you are using some tools you need longer arm the same with the brake rotor size)
2 Second one "hydraulic lever" the smaller brake pump size and bigger piston size will increase the power, but brake pedal travel distance will be increased !! (check on wikipedia)
3 Shorter pads (the same piston in caliper) will give more pressure at 1cm2,
but longer pads can take more heat ,and the area of friction is increased
4 Pads, sports pads need to heat up any way like ds2500 or ds3000 or any other
5 Than weve got tyres , their compounds, stick area ..etc
6 Modern brake systems (ABS pump) can creat some pressure before you can even start to brake

i agree

That's it

Sorry, for basics, but sometimes we are thinking about something great and cant see small issues. ;-)
Im still waiting for final "masterpiece" , and i hope it will be realy perfect.

Very true.......
And maybe worth to say that you brake system(calipers,pads,disc) don't really care if your car is 50 or 500bhp.....again - for the brakes there is no difference if your car is 50 or 500bhp - weight of the car matters for the brakes.....i guess you never press throttle and brakes same time......well when braking on gear sometimes heavy engine internals change the equation a little, but not that much......
Hope you understand that above did not include tyre change......when brake change is combined with wider tyres, there is great effect.....

Power has sth to do with it.
If you.ve got fast car you are driving faster, harder more on the limit you are braking later..etc. I hope that you know what im trying to tell;-)

Yes, if you upgrade to wider tyres it's worth having brake upgrade......but no matter how much bhp your car is, it's pointless to have huge calipers-discs if your tyres can not provide grip.....all car makers design brakes relatively OK for almost every car on the line.....and it was designed for weight and tyres used......
You have two 100 kg mans sliding on ice down the hill, wearing same size of shoes - one of them is fat and other is world wrestling champion......who will stop first?.....why the wrestler may stop first if they just slide and rely on the grip of it's shoes?

I have to reply on this topic because I'm currently thinking about alfa brembo conversion.

I have someone who is willing to sell me alfa 166 super Brembos with pads for 120€, all I need is a discs, and maybe an adapter?
I have a VIS that I'm used to drive sporty and now I have EBC Ultimax discs and brakes, which are not as good as I thought....So currently I have two choices.

Buy the brembos for 120€ and discs from LAncia D. 3 for 150€....
or
Buy sports EBC discs with RED stuff pads for 330€...

What should I do? A lot of people here are saying that the alfa brembos are a straight fit on Coop? With lancia discs?
What about the HUD diameter , is it the same 58.1 as the Lancias???

If someone has any ideas how to help me I would be very thankfull....

you will need adapters to fit alfa 166 brembo's to your coupe .

Marco said earlier that the Brembos won't fit under standard 20v or 20vt alloys.

I know, if you have 330mm discs the minimum is 17" alloys, but I have Asa Ar1 18" on, so that shouldn't be a problem....

Do you really think that so much heavy 330mm discs with big 18" rims and tyres will not affect car's handling?
Some may say that it will stop better(and this can be debated a lot, because you did not change car's weight), but lot of unsprung masses always affect handling.
Why not using 310 or 312mm discs? It may require redrill, but it's not a big deal......

Couple of weeks ago I changed my stock 284mm x 22mm discs and stock Lucas calipers.

Now I am using Alfa 166/Kappa 20vt 4 pot Brembo with 305mm x 28mm discs (Coupe 20vt/Mito Qv). This set up is so much better compared to the stock! The initial bite is superb and heavy braking from 140+ mph is not a problem any more...Pedal feel and travel are the same as before (no need to change brake master cylinder). You need to make 2 steel brackets. Here are some pics :



Some useful info :

284mm x 22mm discs - 6 kg each disc
305mm x 28mm discs - 8.3 kg each disc
310mm x 28mm discs - almost 9kg each disc
330mm x 32mm discs - 10.3 kg each disc

I have been thinking of the Alfa 310mm disc but the advantage will be too small for the hassle. Also it wont fit within the calipers..

Re your thinking on big brakes, why then has not all fast factory cars very small brakes if that's better..?
You are right that the cars weigth is one of the factors, but what brakes really do is transverse moving energy to heat. And the moving energy is a product from power x weigth. More power - better brakes please, very simple.

Unspung weigth is a different matter, but of secondary interest when you are running out of brakes.

I never said that bigger brakes is not advantage, but only when combined with wider tyres - they provide more grip, and more braking power needed.......
And as we all noted - all very powerful cars, had very wide tyres......Size of the brake system is 95% determined by the weight and tyres of the car......
Running on semi or full slicks also require bigger brakes.....
Heat - ok, braking produce heat and bigger disc and pads transfer heat better, but i doubt that any average daily driver with average remaped Coupe to overheat brakes, unless he make 5-6-7-8 extreme stops one after another.....and some good pads may cure that.
I'm not against big brakes anyway, have it on my trackday car, but there is few pros and cons when using it on daily cars......

if the discs become larger from 28 to 33mm
it will handle more the heating on heavy stop
i presume it will distort less than original discs

Now I finally got proper late GTA 330mm calipers on the way, is there a good source for 2-piece 330mm disc's..?
(alu hub)
I know there are kits (Maxx etc.) which such disc's but I don't know if their offset's different to the std Alfa disc?

Good work, was it a fairly straight forward swap once the brackets were made, any plans with the rears?

Yep,

It is very easy job if you have the brackets made.

I don't think I need bigger brakes at the rear unless I go for the 4x4 conversion one day....

So I got my GTA 330mm calipers finally.
Cheaply, from a scrapped 156 GTA 2004 in UK so a bit mucky and dirty but otherwise in very good shape. Will repaint them and of course rebrand them to FIAT.





I'm in touch with a few different specialist for a fitting split disc. After today I have some hopes..

And - now I realize why they reportedly takes a lot more beating..
Not only is the disc 330x32mm instead of 305x28mm, look at the difference in pad area..?!

Are the alfas much better than the brembos then??
as I am sick to death of these poor excuse for brakes! Lol
my daily driver is jst a 320 ci and the brakes in that are sooooo much better than the brembos, if only they were half as good! Lol..

iv toyed with the idea of a full tarox upgrade but I jst cnt justify paying near what I paid for the car on a set of brakes! Lol

oh also do the alfas fit over the standard 20vt??

Cheers..Clive

What pads do you use mr_cheese?

Clive - I'm pretty sure you have a fault/trapped air somewhere. My std Brembo brakes are amazing in everyday driving. Initial bite, feel etc. second to none.
Try changing the fluid, with the correct beeding order. If that doesn't help, change pads.


These calipers are Brembo aswell, as the Fiats. Just beefed up!
They will fit the std mounts. I hope! I'll need bigger trackday rims and new R-tires though..

Hi trappy.. per..

well normally I go with pagid discs with ds5000 pads and yet the brakes jst dont inspire confidence! And im running 360bhp so thats essential! Lol..
this is my 4th coupe now and the brakes have been prity much the same in all of them, CRAP!! Lol..
am I just expecting to much you think?

I just find it hard to belive a standard 320 ci (2002) can have sooo much sharper, confidence inspiring brakes compaired to the coupe..
had them checked over at motormech who say their ok but if these are OK id hate to drive their version of "bad"!! Lol..

wil try and bleed them when shes back frm paintshop, hopefull they improve!!

Absolutley, if anything the Fiat brakes should feel better? It's italian after all.

Check for the (important!) correct bleeding order at the bottom of this page:

http://www.polak.ch/coupemanual/Brakes.htm

I must admit that my brakes used to inspire more confidence than they do now but that's because the calipers are tired and need a refurb - I hope! How many miles had each of your Coupés covered?

I also have no idea how good DS5000s are... did you mean DS2500s as I've never heard of the 5000s...

Mine's done close to 270000km's.
3rd owner.
Calipers refurbished once but seals all cracked again thanks to track use..

Well my 1st coupe was 120,000
2nd 106,000
3rd 100,000
and my current one is on 86,000 but barbz rebuilt engine in 09 befor he sold it and iv only done few though since so only jst broke her in realy! Lol
but if he rebuilt the brakes at same time is doubtful but saying that he did put on all new brake lines, disc, pads ect so might have done as she was standing a few yrs befor that, hence low miles!
Oh and low owners! Im the 3rd! Whop whop! Lol

oh yea I did mean ds2500 lol..

think its time to do full brembo refurb then by the sounds of it as thats one thing I never did on any of my coupes jst thinking that's how coupes were but if per says his are second to none(and iv seen his track vids!lol) then somethings wrong!! Can't belive iv had coupes 10 plus yrs now and jst put up with crappy brakes! And I do mean crappy! Lol

wil keep you all posted how I get on. All best...clive

Brembo calipers from Alfa 166/ Lancia Kappa 20vt use the same pads as 2004 GTA but with smaller disc 310x28mm

The thing is, the 166 calipers still need 17" wheels so you might aswell go for 330mm.

As far as I know 166's calipers can be fitted with 310 mm disks into 16" wheels.

Now - with my 330mm Alfa calipers, do I need to change the main cylinder?

(are the piston diameters different?)

I have GTA calipers with 330 discs and the 20vt brake master cylinder works fine.

Great, cheers!

Few Alfa 166 used bigger piston on it's master cylinder.....24mm or 26mm from my memory......
166's is heavier and uses bigger servo as well.....
But IMO Coupe setup will handle these calipers......but the driver must have in mind that braking feel and braking performance are different things.......

No worries mate, I'll be ok.

I'm doing the exact same project, could someone help me with the brackets? Does anyone know this user is he could get me the dimensions of the brackets?

Is this really possible? Can anyone confirm please.

Some pictures from the alfa 145 forum:

Thanks for that, it would be good to be sure they also fit in the Coupe before buying some!! Especially to be sure they don't need spacers or anything.

Almost an year ago I bought a pair of Alfa 166 Brembo calipers just for 40£. I finally managed to rebuild and install them on my 16vt. My current setup is PFC 1001.11 brake pads + 20VT MTEC Brake discs.

My previous brake setup was the same as injekciona's -> Brembo calipers + 305mm discs. I don't know if it would be advantage or disadvatage but I decided to go for my newest brake setup

Alfa 166/Lancia Kappa 20vt Brembo Calipers + 330mm discs :

So my first impressions with the 330mm ->

- braking is stronger, more feel to the pedal and even better bite ! Fade...What was that?

Now the bad news -> With this 330mm in front and stock 240mm at the rear I think the braking bias is very different and ABS is not calibrated properly and it kicks in very very early.

When I brake a little harder for the first time, I almost crashed into the car in front of me because the ABS was kicking like mad but the car was not decelerating properly

I am little confused because I am not sure why the ABS is triggered so early :

1) The new bigger discs make so much braking force in front so that the rear end rises and rear tyres lose grip -> ABS kicks in

or

2) When I brake, the front tyres loose grip because of too much front bias -> ABS kicks in

Opinions?

Not sure on this
It can't be the extra braking, because you would be braking to the point of lock up to bring in the abs and lock up will be approximately same as before (assuming wheels and tyres are the same) as its when the tyre loses grip that that the abs kicks in which is related to braking force

Not sure if the rear would go lite when braking hard as that again would assume there is enough braking force to lift the rear of the car before the tyres loose grip! Are you braking on a bumpy road where it's possible to loose traction on one wheel
I assume you have the correct sensors that work correctly and that your wheels are the same diameter (rolling circumference)?

I run 330mm on the front (and 300mm) on the rear and I never had any ABS issue when tracking the car around Spa. I'd say you have other problems elsewhere that is causing the ABS to kick in.