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F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' #1426957
12/05/2013 18:10
12/05/2013 18:10

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DennisK
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Getting really sick and tired (tyred?) of all of these moans about F1; 'this isn't real racing', 'the tyres degrade too much', etc. etc. Watching the BBC F1 Forum, I see Suzy Perry interviewing Red Bull's Christian Horner, who is predictably complaining about the tyres limiting the performance of his cars, with Perry hanging on to and agreeing with his every word.

What Perry doesn't realise, is that Horner is complaining about the Pirelli tyres as they penalise his cars probably more than any other, with the exception of Mercedes. Five races into the season and Suzy Perry is beginning to annoy me. If your job is to front a sport on national TV, then you should know the ins and outs of it, but Suzy just comes across as hardly knowing a thing about F1. Admittedly, having Jake Humphrey and his chemistry with EJ and DC beforehand probably spoilt us all.

Anyway, rant head on.....

Just because the drivers cannot go flat-out from lights to flag, people are complaining that it's not 'real racing', which is complete rubbish. I think people seem to forget that before the days of in race refuelling, the drivers always had to look after their tyres, brakes and fuel consumption. It was an artform to balance punishing the car and going fast enough to win the race. It really rewarded thinking drivers like Prost and I don't recall too many people complaining about the lack of 'real racing' back then. Albeit, overtaking was slightly easier in those days with the wider rubber and greater percentage of downforce from the floor and the cars were more fragile.

When refuelling was introduced, the races became more processional, more predictable and more boring! In the Bridgestone monopoly era, the tyres were super durable and the drivers were able to run flat out, lap after lap. The upshot being, the fastest car and driver combo qualified on pole and then scarpered off into the distance, unless you happened to have the good fortune that two manufacturers cars and drivers were evenly matched. The only way to overtake was to wait for the pit stops, which was super boring.

The teams with the fastest cars and all of the drivers thought it was great as they could drive to the cars limit, all of the time. But it was crap to watch (unless you were Italian or German), as evidenced during the dominant Ferrari/Schumacher years when millions of people turned away from F1, to do something less boring instead on their Sunday afternoon. It is telling that Red Bull are the only one's in the paddock really bleating on about the tyres, as their car still has the most downforce, but they cannot use it. Ask the rest of the teams and they will pretty much all say that the current tyres should stay as they are. If the tyres were super durable and consistant, then none of the other teams would see the Red Bulls until parc ferme after the race.

The ban on refuelling in 2010 addressed some of the problems of boring races, making them easier to follow and forcing drivers to make moves out on the track. But it was the race at Canada that same season, where the Bridegtones were suffering huge (unintentional) graining, where we had the best race of the season and it was hugely entertaining. Afterwards, drivers were quoted as saying that the race had been 'challenging', 'difficult' and 'tough'. So I find it annoying that some drivers and teams are now complaining that they are only driving at 90% a lot of the time.

Ok, so they are't able to go flat out, but Canada 2010 demanded a different skill set other than just sheer speed, just as current F1 does. Knowing when to fight and when it will just harm your own chances, is a necessary skill. The teams and drivers need to put up and shut up and get on with doing the best job with what they've been given.

I feel sorry for Pirelli coming in for a load of stick, week in, week out, as they're only doing exactly what the teams and FIA have requested them to do i.e. provide tyres which are critical and wear out quickly, which provide an unpredictability to the racing. If you ask me, they're doing a great job.

The Spanish GP is traditinally a total snooze fest, but thanks to Pirelli and DRS (more on DRS later), we had Alonso start 5th and win, Kimi gain two places to finish 2nd, Massa start 9th and finish 3rd and we saw the Mercs freefall down the order. Good entertaining stuff with plenty of wheel to wheel action. Exactly like it was in Bahrain in fact!

Everyone here will know that I am a diehard Formula 1 fan and as much as a purist as the next man. I love the technology and speed, I love the fact that the teams spend millions to find tiny points of downforce. The only difference now, is that the millions are now being spent on trying to understand the tyres and tying to get the best out of them for longer.

However, I do have one complaint about current F1 and that is the current requirement for two DRS zones on every circuit. I find this to be a little too excessive and artificial for my liking. One DRS zone for most circuits is quite enough thank you. In fact, it could be argued that no DRS zones are needed at all with the current tyres.

To those people who complain about current F1 not being real racing, then you have to ask the question what their perception of real racing actually is. The fact of the matter is, the sport of F1 is in a constant state of flux. both in sporting and technical regulations. The job of the teams, is to do the best job they can within those regulations. In this instance, nothing has changed and F1 is still as pure and cutting edge as it has ever been. In other words, (and I repeat) they need to put up and shut up.

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1426964
12/05/2013 18:41
12/05/2013 18:41
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Berlin
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Agree 100% Dennis. It's the designer's job to build a car that works with the agreed tyres; it's the strategist's job to work out the best strategy - and to change it on the fly if necessary, and it's the driver's job to go as fast as he can with the tools he's got - and if that means he has to slow down to save fuel or his tyres, that's just tough...


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Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1426973
12/05/2013 19:02
12/05/2013 19:02
Joined: Dec 2005
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Northumberland
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Originally Posted By: DennisK
To those people who complain about current F1 not being real racing, then you have to ask the question what their perception of real racing actually is.


Moto GP, HTH.


Dear monos, a secret truth.
Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: AndrewR] #1426975
12/05/2013 19:16
12/05/2013 19:16

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DennisK
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Originally Posted By: AndrewR
Originally Posted By: DennisK
To those people who complain about current F1 not being real racing, then you have to ask the question what their perception of real racing actually is.


Moto GP, HTH.


The coverage of which, has now been lost to BT Sport. Feel another rant coming on.... grr

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1426980
12/05/2013 19:47
12/05/2013 19:47
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Originally Posted By: DennisK
Five races into the season and Suzy Perry is beginning to annoy me.


thumb +1 Mind I wasn't keen on Humphrey either.

My two main whinges are DRS and qualifying.

DRS is total nonsense. They may as well wave a blue flag at the front driver if the car behind is within a second of it.

I much preferred the hour of tactical sitting and flying laps (esp Schumacher and Hakkinen cool ). I don't bother watching it now.


"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427019
12/05/2013 21:36
12/05/2013 21:36
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Corridor of Uncertainty
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This time last year I was moaning about the tyres because it seemed to have become a lottery who won each Grand Prix. And the fact that Maldonado won last year's Spanish race and went on to do sod all kind of proved my point. However, this year the teams have cottoned on to how it goes and have become more cunning in dealing with the subtleties required. As a fan of Jenson Button, it's frustrating because the dog that the MP4-28 seems to be doesn't suit Button's need for a perfectly-balanced set up. On the other hand, as a fan of close racing and clever strategy, we are seeing the cream rise to the top as ever. Raikkonen and Alonso are the best two exponents of the above arts in my view and these two will hopefully triumph over the extravagantly talented, yet irksome Vettel, whose repertoire does not yet include combining tyre saving and out-and-out speed.
And as for Pirelli, good for them, they have done exactly what was asked of them. As long as we don't see too many more catastrophic delaminations...
Roll on Monaco!

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: Jim_Clennell] #1427022
12/05/2013 21:50
12/05/2013 21:50
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Originally Posted By: Jim_Clennell
Roll on Monaco!


zzz zzz


"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427042
12/05/2013 22:57
12/05/2013 22:57

D
DennisK
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On the contrary, Monaco should be interesting. I'd put money on Hamilton to set pole and then be a mobile road block in the race. Keeping the rears alive will be ultra hard for everybody.

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427045
12/05/2013 23:08
12/05/2013 23:08

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DennisK
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Oh dear, looks like Pirelli are conceding to poorly informed public pressure. Oh, and Bernie's love of Sebastian Vettel.

Pirelli to make changes.

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427067
13/05/2013 08:39
13/05/2013 08:39
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Originally Posted By: DennisK
Monaco should be interesting.


Originally Posted By: DennisK

I'd put money on Hamilton to set pole and then be a mobile road block in the race.


I rest my case, that is the whole issue with Monaco. Although it would make me a tadge happier if Hamilton is the roadblock..


"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427109
13/05/2013 14:44
13/05/2013 14:44

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jim3
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Dennis, I broadly agree with your points.

Tyre management will always rank highly in the ingredients/factors that lead to a race win.

However, the percentage share that tyre management plays in this mix has now increased to the point where it is often slower to try to fight or defend a position. This is the point at which that share has become too large, IMHO.

Jim

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427190
13/05/2013 22:01
13/05/2013 22:01
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Dennisk I could have been the one writing that.Its sums up EXACTLY my sentiments regarding current f1 racing.

As for a snooze fest i think the monaco gp is by far the worst on the calendar.
Be nice to see drivers "managing" tyre degradation on that track but as the speeds/downforce are so low i doubt it will be an exciting race.

Last edited by davesport; 13/05/2013 22:01.

Sloak Hunt Racing!
Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427211
14/05/2013 00:02
14/05/2013 00:02

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DennisK
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Originally Posted By: jim3
Tyre management will always rank highly in the ingredients/factors that lead to a race win.

However, the percentage share that tyre management plays in this mix has now increased to the point where it is often slower to try to fight or defend a position. This is the point at which that share has become too large, IMHO.

Jim


I totally see where you're coming from Jim. However, it's always been the case that defending your position is the slowest way. There is still plenty of wheel to wheel racing, but it's now that the driver just have to be more mindful of when it's best to fight, or live to fight another day and not compromise his own race. I don't think the general layman or casual F1 viewer understands this.

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427234
14/05/2013 07:40
14/05/2013 07:40
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Tyre management is all very well, but I do think that I'd rather see the disappearance of the flippy-flappy-instant-overtake mode... KERS is fine, and sensible engineering that *could* have relevance to road vehicles, but I really don't like the aero changes that suddenly increase the top speed of the following car.

Strikes me that it would be better to arrange for more downforce from the car body/underside and smaller wings all round - hence less turbulence behind the car and so more chance of the car behind working properly.


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Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427251
14/05/2013 10:19
14/05/2013 10:19
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Originally Posted By: DennisK
I don't think the general layman or casual F1 viewer understands this.


Absolutely Dennis, but the layman is the bulk of the audience that sponsors are hoping to reach. Clever engineering and scientific driving is all very well, however if the end result is a turn off, punters will.


"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427254
14/05/2013 10:37
14/05/2013 10:37
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Originally Posted By: DennisK
Oh dear, looks like Pirelli are conceding to poorly informed public pressure. Oh, and Bernie's love of Sebastian Vettel.

Pirelli to make changes.


Or more likely the Money. Mr Redbull is unhappy, oh dear, how sad, never mind.

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: bockers] #1427261
14/05/2013 11:59
14/05/2013 11:59

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tim42
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I'm very pleased I'm not running Pirellis on my Coupe. I like my tyres to last longer than 20 miles..... rolleyes

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: Roadking] #1427334
14/05/2013 21:42
14/05/2013 21:42

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DennisK
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Originally Posted By: Roadking
Originally Posted By: DennisK
I don't think the general layman or casual F1 viewer understands this.


Absolutely Dennis, but the layman is the bulk of the audience that sponsors are hoping to reach. Clever engineering and scientific driving is all very well, however if the end result is a turn off, punters will.


You know, I'm not really sure if the 'layman' actually make up the majority of the audience. Has there ever been a survey done? It would make interesting reading.

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: barnacle] #1427339
14/05/2013 21:51
14/05/2013 21:51

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DennisK
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Originally Posted By: barnacle
Tyre management is all very well, but I do think that I'd rather see the disappearance of the flippy-flappy-instant-overtake mode... KERS is fine, and sensible engineering that *could* have relevance to road vehicles, but I really don't like the aero changes that suddenly increase the top speed of the following car.

Strikes me that it would be better to arrange for more downforce from the car body/underside and smaller wings all round - hence less turbulence behind the car and so more chance of the car behind working properly.


I agree, DRS is beginning to get a little farcical. Especially with two zones per track. I wonder if it will come under review for 2014. With the turbo engines and limited fuel, the drivers will have to turn the boost up or down to suit, instead of having to rely on DRS. The variable performance of the more powerful regenerative systems will also introduce a performance differentiator too.

More ground effect from the floor is the most obvious answer, but that raises issues in terms of safety as the cars could become way too pitch sensitive. Hence why the current stepped floor and plank regs. were introduced in the first place after the death of Senna. Although Indycars seem to do generally ok with their aero package.

Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427346
14/05/2013 22:30
14/05/2013 22:30
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Not necessarily more from the floor; just less from the wings.

F1 is all about aerodynamics these days; something that *can't* pull five G in a turn might be more interesting. When I want aerodynamics I can go flying.


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Re: F1 2013 - 'Not real racing' [Re: ] #1427348
14/05/2013 22:34
14/05/2013 22:34

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