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Aquamist - Does anyone really know
#1428068
19/05/2013 17:59
19/05/2013 17:59
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Since I've put my car back on the road, it's been feeling quicker and more relentless than before. I thought this was just due to me not driving it for a long time, but there is definitely a noticeable difference.
Then the other night I realised my Aquamist isn't working anymore. Even though the system and gauge are on, it's not showing any flow, so there's a problem somewhere.
I'm also hitting a higher boost target than I dial in, for the first time ever.
So why is the Aquamist killing my power? I thought the whole point of running meth injection is to run cooler cylinder temps and suppress detonation, and therefor run more boost and power more safely, but the car is definitely slower with it switched on.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428082
19/05/2013 19:40
19/05/2013 19:40
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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I'm guessing that our car was mapped for the meth injection? If so then in theory you should get a bit more grunt with it for the reasons that you mention.
Water on it's own just dampens the spark.....mist is used in the US on drag cars where there is no other way to stop detonation.....and it saps power.
You might be getting more power now, but are you sure the map is safe? If the system is faulty then does your ecu revert to another map?
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428101
19/05/2013 22:30
19/05/2013 22:30
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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but are you sure the map is safe? How does anyone know if any map is safe? If the safety measures of the stock ecu are in place(which it should be according to flea), then the knock sensors should step in if the engine is detonating. Whether that is actually happening, I'm not sure. If the system is faulty then does your ecu revert to another map? Nope. The ecu doesn't know whether you are running Aquamist or not. What I can say though is, the car is feeling good and quicker than ever.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428105
19/05/2013 23:04
19/05/2013 23:04
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Hi Mate If your injector light comes on in 4th and 5th, peak load, then its knocking its tits off, so beware! Trust me been there and done that!
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428106
19/05/2013 23:05
19/05/2013 23:05
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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With a 50/50 meth it alters my afr around 0.3.
Typically mappers will map the cars to a perfect afr and then use the methanol to make the top end a little safer.
Water isn't combustible and is used to cool intake temps only but will sap power however on a hot day it'll make more power.
Never tried switching mine off to check if the boost creeps though.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428119
19/05/2013 23:52
19/05/2013 23:52
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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The stock ECU can only retard the ignition so much.....
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428138
20/05/2013 07:27
20/05/2013 07:27
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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I will sort it out Rudi. I'm just surprised it's making more power with the Aquamist switched off.
Barbz, the injector light was coming on when I loaded it in 4th so it looks like you're right.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428154
20/05/2013 10:39
20/05/2013 10:39
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz, the injector light was coming on when I loaded it in 4th so it looks like you're right.
You should know this by now, that all these standard ecu's in there hybridised form are generally mapped in 3rd. Can only imagine what it must be like doing 130mph @ 8350rpm round the streets of Bristol. So, 4th & 5th would need an element of guess work, hence you may experience a bit of detonation from time to time. Hey, it'll be fine as the factory safety features are switched on, i hope.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428159
20/05/2013 10:57
20/05/2013 10:57
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Or turn the boost down, High boost Hero!
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428161
20/05/2013 11:06
20/05/2013 11:06
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Or turn the boost down, High boost Hero! Never!!
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428162
20/05/2013 11:07
20/05/2013 11:07
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crazylegs
Unregistered
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crazylegs
Unregistered
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Pay the price then little endz
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428164
20/05/2013 11:11
20/05/2013 11:11
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428168
20/05/2013 11:22
20/05/2013 11:22
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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In general, water injection in and of itself does not give more power. Obviously water is not combustable therefore at a glance is is counterproductive. However, the reason we use it is for the same reason we have intercoolers, to help control temperatures. Not only can it cool the charge temperature, it will also serve to reduce exhaust gas temperature (EGT) significantly. This can have two main benefits: 1. More consistent combustion (and subsequently power) under greater/extended loads 2. Reducing EGTs below critical thresholds When combining methanol with water, we are retaining the benefits of water cooling, and introducing a high octane fuel. The single purpose for raising the octane is for knock surpression, which can mean the ability to run more boost pressure, advance timing further, or simply to allow a safer tune with more consistent power. All these factors are altered according to nozzle size, pump pressure and injection location. For your car, given that I had to map 2bar boost on 97 octane fuel, it was used primarily as an aid to consistent power and knock surpression. This will become even more important when the warmer weather arrives, and of course if pushing the car to very high speeds that you may see on an airfield/track
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428170
20/05/2013 11:31
20/05/2013 11:31
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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You're right, I will always remember I made more power than you on the heartbreaker. Cheers Flea, I will get a smaller nozzle as I'm running quite a big one and will do some testing.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: Flea]
#1428171
20/05/2013 11:32
20/05/2013 11:32
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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In general, water injection in and of itself does not give more power. Obviously water is not combustable therefore at a glance is is counterproductive. However, the reason we use it is for the same reason we have intercoolers, to help control temperatures. Not only can it cool the charge temperature, it will also serve to reduce exhaust gas temperature (EGT) significantly. This can have two main benefits: 1. More consistent combustion (and subsequently power) under greater/extended loads 2. Reducing EGTs below critical thresholds When combining methanol with water, we are retaining the benefits of water cooling, and introducing a high octane fuel. The single purpose for raising the octane is for knock surpression, which can mean the ability to run more boost pressure, advance timing further, or simply to allow a safer tune with more consistent power. All these factors are altered according to nozzle size, pump pressure and injection location. For your car, given that I had to map 2bar boost on 97 octane fuel, it was used primarily as an aid to consistent power and knock surpression. This will become even more important when the warmer weather arrives, and of course if pushing the car to very high speeds that you may see on an airfield/track Also, when you mapped the car, did you map it with the Aquamist switched on from the beginning? I'm asking as I've spoken to one of the Evo boys who said there's a whole process of mapping the car with water/meth injection to get the most out of it.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428174
20/05/2013 11:56
20/05/2013 11:56
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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You're right, I will always remember I made more power than you on the heartbreaker. Yes, Yes, Keeping in with current fuel additive trend, and 2.? bar You are so welcome Now get back to work!
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428175
20/05/2013 12:06
20/05/2013 12:06
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Hi Mate If your injector light comes on in 4th and 5th, peak load, then its knocking its tits off, so beware! Trust me been there and done that! Barbz, the injector light was coming on when I loaded it in 4th so it looks like you're right.
You should know this by now, that all these standard ecu's in there hybridised form are generally mapped in 3rd. Can only imagine what it must be like doing 130mph @ 8350rpm round the streets of Bristol. So, 4th & 5th would need an element of guess work, hence you may experience a bit of detonation from time to time. Hey, it'll be fine as the factory safety features are switched on, i hope. The injector light will not come on due to engine knock being detected, you are associating at totally different ECU event which is related to boost control. Regarding the mapping, all cars are mapped in 4th gear on the dyno, there is no guesswork ever required. This is the same if I map a factory ECU or a standalone system, the process is exactly the same. Last week I mapped two DTA systems, one was exclusively on the dyno as it was a race car (not road legal). The safety parameters in any ECU will help to resolve unfavourable events, but they cannot perform miracles. In the case of a high boost car like Pero's, knock supression via ignition retard will have the effect of elevating EGTs. This is often more of a concern than the primary knock, hence why the ECU is programmed to introduce extra fuel to cool cylinders under this scenario.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428176
20/05/2013 12:20
20/05/2013 12:20
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Flea, why did the injector light come on?
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428179
20/05/2013 12:37
20/05/2013 12:37
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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I suffered similar issues to this, when injector light was on the AFR plummeted to low 10's, with noticeible power loss? Bit late, but we finally got to the bottom of this.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428188
20/05/2013 13:44
20/05/2013 13:44
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crazylegs
Unregistered
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crazylegs
Unregistered
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you I remember auto itailia ????
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428237
20/05/2013 18:13
20/05/2013 18:13
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486 London Tan
technics
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,486
London Tan
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Pero, once upon a time my dds3 Aquamist gauge was showing no flow, but I marked with a pen on the water/meth tank and after a few blasts the level went down. So it was working but not showing anything on my gauge inside the car. Check this first. If your car is the same, then what sorted it for me was a new flow sensor, cost around £110.
Keep us posted.
Now in the 400+ bhp club!
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428246
20/05/2013 18:30
20/05/2013 18:30
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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I can test the system without the car running, so I will see if it's actually working or not. I suspect the pressure switch might have gone faulty or has adjusted itself over the last few months, so I will check this first.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428250
20/05/2013 18:46
20/05/2013 18:46
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Flea, why did the injector light come on? As I mentioned above, it's an ECU boost control parameter that will trigger this. You will see it on a standard car if using a manual valve that takes pressures outside of a preset range based on a time delta. I'll turn it off for you Oh and it has zero impact on fuel and timing, absolutely diddly squat!
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428251
20/05/2013 18:52
20/05/2013 18:52
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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So my car wasn't detonating? Blimey, I'll turn the boost up then!
Being serious, the injector light came on long before the boost target was reached, so it doesn't make sense to me?
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: ]
#1428261
20/05/2013 19:55
20/05/2013 19:55
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Listen, the man said its only a light, means nothing so chill. Want a run down Bruntingthorpe to prove its all ok http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJLQdl5_ViEBy the way i've it used as a shift light now.
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Re: Aquamist - Does anyone really know
[Re: technics]
#1429504
25/05/2013 20:44
25/05/2013 20:44
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Biggenz
Unregistered
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Pero, once upon a time my dds3 Aquamist gauge was showing no flow, but I marked with a pen on the water/meth tank and after a few blasts the level went down. So it was working but not showing anything on my gauge inside the car. Check this first. If your car is the same, then what sorted it for me was a new flow sensor, cost around £110.
Keep us posted. Well I tested my Aquamist system today and it turns out it was working all along. For some reason it wasn't showing any flow on the gauge, but when I disconnected the jet it showed full flow. I thought I had a blockage somewhere so unscrewed the jet, but it's working fine. I adjusted the flow on the gauge to full so now it's showing one bar.
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