Hello, just wanted to ask few questions.

so 20vt trigger wheel is 60-2
is TDC at first tooth after missing 2 ?

or any specific tooth ?

Thanks

Definately no. Bosch on 60-2 have tdc usualy around 110-120deg after missing 2, but i dont know 20vt exactly.

I have used search and found topic that 20vt uses 270deg BTDC so if I Understand right

missing tooth will be at 12oclock, 270deg BTDC will be at crank sensor (9o clock).

is that right?

Anyone ? 270 degree trigger does not work ...
Many flames throgh exhaust ;D

The first question is what reference tooth does the ECU expect to trigger from?

The ECU you are using should explain like this manufacturer does:
http://www.liferacing.com/wp-content/downloads/LR%20Crank%20Reference%20Setup.pdf

Looking back at my old OMEX map suggests that the reference was ~90BTDC. To be honest this was many years ago and I can't remember but this figure does ring a bell.

To get you going (since the trigger wheel is inside the engine) just fix your ignition timing to ZERO deg in the ECU (ensure that the final ignition is ZERO) some ECUs offer a "timing mode" to aid with this process. Unplug the injectors and crank over using a timing light and marked bottom pulley to TDC. Adjust the reference angle in the software until ZERO lines up. Always use ZERO deg incase your ECU is trying to run the engine in 360mode (wasted spark) in this case the timing light will read double until you confirm that the ECU is running in 720mode (sequentially).

Good Luck!

According to the service manual the 20vt crank toothed wheel has 58 teeth plus a gap of 2 teeth . Not sure if that's what you meant by "60-2" , but if not then that might explain why your timing is out.

The cam phase sensor signals 78 degrees before TDC on cylinder #1 , every 2nd revolution, but the manual doesn't mention TDC in regard to the crank sensor.

I have set Ecu to to fire without any ignition advance at the moment , 90degree does make sense ,
but cam signal is present at tooth 58(not there) in relation to crank trigger wheel.

and if im making calculations from there as tooth 58 is 78deg BTD (as in Manual) the crank trigger happens to be at 66deg BTDC - but then Cylinder 3 TDC will beat tooth 59 (not there) therefore it wont work.

TurboJ do you remember if it was Raising or falling edge used on cam sync?

ecu request to enter combination of teeth and degrees to determine TDC At crank.

It sounds to me like you need to contact the ECU manufacturer with your questions as I have no idea what ECU you are using, but based on setups I have done in the past I would take the following approach.

Ignore the CAM sensor at the moment as you need to prove ignition timing in 360 sync first. Your ECU should run this engine in wasted spark mode (cam sensor unplugged).

The crankshaft trigger wheel is 60-2 and there will be a tooth that your ECU uses to reference cylinder 1 TDC, this is called the reference tooth (or index). This is measured from Cyl1 TDC and is your reference angle i.e. 90BTDC. This is all the information your ECU should need in order for you to crank and confirm with a timing light correct spark placement at ZERO degrees.

Whether the signal is rising or falling edge will depend on which way round you have wired the crank VR sensor and how the internal bipolar circuit in your ECU operates. You need to look at your ECUs built in oscilloscope to see if you need to choose falling or rising edge, if you get it wrong you will probably get misfires at high engine speed.

Once this is correct you should be able to monitor the CAM channel and see what angle the CAM trigger occurs. Its a hall effect sensor with a single gap and is only used for phase so it won't matter if it is rising or falling edge as you will only see one pulse per 720. Once the camed is synced the engine should run sequentially (720 sync).

ive got all above ,
I can see scope readings from crank and cam , if I would use wrong edge on crank it would show me wrong scope reading , so im using rising edge as it show correct scope , cam sensor is selected as falling as (standard hall selection) and its trigger is at tooth 58that is 348BTDC .

As I wrote above I does not make any sense to take it from there. as cyl 3 wont have TDC (Trigger falls at missing tooth on crank)

Ill Try to set ignition at 90deg BTDC and see if I Can get any useful readings from cam sensor at rising edge.

By the way im running (LOL Trying to get it running)
Ecu Master EMU unit

So? Sounds very odd to me if this is disallowed by the ECU settings.

Never heard of this ECU before, quick google says it's from Poland? I hope their support is good!

well there is some support , and detailed manual.
its constantly updated and has many features so will see

well its not like is not allowed by ecu its just there is no tooth in that place on crank trigger wheel to trigger 3rd ignition event

I think it should be ok if ill set cam sync on raising edge as cut on cam sprocket is quite large and will have some degrees to move trigger point,
fo if my theory is correct and crank TDC is at 90 degrees they both should line up at 90TDC. will try on monday night and let u guys know

OK ill try,
Crank is starting to count from first tooths raising edge (tooth 0)

We know cam trigger is 78deg BTDC
Hall sensors 99% of the time are using Falling edge that is tooth 58(first missing tooth) on crank wheel.
so tooth 58 is second tooth or 12 degrees before tooth 0.

78-12= 66degrees
from tooth 1 we add another 66degree (11tooth)
so we are at tooth 11.

full engine cycle is 720degrees
5 ignition events
720/5= ignition event every 144degrees (or 24 tooth)

1 st ignition event at 78BTDC of cam At tooth 11
2 nd 11+24=35 tooth
3 rd 35+24=59 tooth (No Tooth on crank wheel as 60-2 trigger tooth 58 and 59 missing)
4 th 59+24=83 = 1lap and tooth 23
5 th 83+24=107 = 1 lap 47 tooth

1 st 107+24=131 = 2laps 11tooth New cycle from 1st TDC trigger


Hence this wont work

Trigger tooth 15 and your trigger angle 90degrees BTDC on cylinder 1

Possibly

Give those guys a shout - https://www.facebook.com/WALASMotorsport/

There's a chap on the Polish Fiat Coupe forum who had the same ECU as yours fitted and tuned by them (20VT).

Be careful with this assumption, a mechanical rising edge typically produces and electrical falling edge as most Hall sensors are "pulled-up" to Vref so the electrical signal can work inverted. I would check this is the case with your ECU before assuming the edge for 78Deg, but like I said earlier this is only used for phase so should not affect getting the engine running without this sensor plugged in, 360sync.



The ECU is a computer, it knows the trigger wheel you have selected 60-2 (6deg per tooth), it knows the firing order, number of cylinders and that it is NOT asymmetric so it should know how to divide up a trigger wheel and schedule. You should only need to tell the ECU where Cylinder 1 TDC is.

Of course an ignition event will occur over the missing gap. Ignition placement is typically ranged -30 to + 50deg so it is inevitable that spark placement for a given cylinder will occur over the gap, I can't see why this is an issue otherwise how on earth can it run most engines.

Well I got it running ,
Cam trigger falling edge ,
Crank trigger tooth 1, angle 60.

Now have lots of other stuff left ;D
I need to set up fans now otherwise cant play around for too long ;))

Ill try to contact guys to se maybe they can help me out with some info that worked best on coupe

Well Done