What are peoples thoughts on Europe? Should we stay or should we walk?

I remember Ted Heath signing papers back in 1973 taking the UK into the common market. No referendum, in we went. Some say we entered illegally because the British public were not consulted properly. Indeed France blocked Britain for years.

What do you all think?

From a professional perspective, harmonisation with Europe on regulations makes life a lot easier. I'd rather be in the tent than outside it.

I was also a migrant worker for a while (something my dear mother forgets when she complains about them) and I've generally seen more benefits from the free movement of labour than problems.

So, on the whole, I'm an In man.

In, the days when we could be conquer the world on our own from this little island are long gone.

Im out

The union is great for the middle and above earners and business owners as it generally does not effect there income skill set and business owners can get on the whole, cheaper labour

The middle to low earners end up competing for jobs while the employers keep telling them how lucky they are to have a job and we wont be giving you a cost of living pay rise but you must be more productive!

I enjoy going to europe and i dont for one minute think much will change, also we wont be really any worse off

But im going to vote that way for the future generations!
the poorer are getting poorer and finding it harder to compete! but its all good for business owners so vote for your own selfish needs or for whats best for the future generations of our youth!

To add i think its the freedom of movement that most want a restriction on and a fair work based visa Australian style possibly as we should not support people that have no intention of working
Also i dont forget im half Italian as my grandfather was a migrant its nothing against the people just the system!

To my long-standing disappointment, (discussed on here some years ago), I have never been able to read a hype and agenda-free, cogent argument by either side to enable me to make what I would be happy with as an informed decision.

I've lived in 3 EU countries and I'm instinctively in favour of the breaking down of barriers rather than their erection (stop sniggering at the back).

My feeling is that the UK should probably remain in the EU for trade and freedom of movement reasons.

On the other hand, I've never understood how a Common Agricultural Policy could make sense and there are (as the dreary tabloids never tire of telling us) plenty of genuinely odd/unreasonable decisions that don't seem to make sense. If the "out" campaigners (not necessarily all out voters) could convince me that they weren't at least partly driven by xenophobia, it would help me feel more persuaded by their arguments.

Also, has anyone considered whether Europe actually wants US?

In - but with plenty of qualification.

As the days roll on, and especially after today, more inclined to "out". If countries want to enter into turmoil with one another it'll take more than an agreement to stop them.

I'm hearing that EU economy is shrinking so I'd tend to think they would continue trade with the UK whatever the outcome. Trade has been a fact of life since the year dot and where there's a will......

Who knows, maybe some feeling of greater independence could foster an increase in national pride, knowing that we're in greater control of our destiny. This isn't particularly quantifiable and no longer rates as an "asset" on a balance sheet but I think there is more at stake here than Pounds and Pence.

IN for me, it was I believe originally formed to prevent another major European war. Many people complain and blame EEC for problems actually caused by a far more alarming body the WTO, which seems to be unelected.

Personally I consider myself European, if we leave Europe we may find ourselves a small island very much like Taiwan competing only on cheapness of our goods and labour.

In. But I'd as soon keep it as a common market and lose the whole federated Europa thing.

With this logic, it seems odd that the left-of-centre parties are all for the EU - are they now the champions of the high earners??

I'm out, as more Eastern European countries are knocking on the EU's door seeking entry our position as strong as some make it out to be is likely to be weakened further. I have sought info both pro and con and it's not easy to read through the rhetoric to get to the facts.
I see no reason to accept that leaving will be the disaster many claim it to be. I wonder how the debate will progress now we know the extent of Cameron's "deal" which does meet the expectations of many Tories never mind anyone else.

I am not wholly convinced by Europe but I am far more worried about being out than in.

The out campaign speak of reduced "Red Tape" for business but never clarify exactly what they mean by this. I sadly suspect the only elements of red tape we would loose to benefit business would be those elements that actually benefit any of us who are employed - Holidays, employment conditions and working hours for example. All the other stuff would surely still need to be complied with, even if we opted out.

After my summer trips I also have concerns when people say we should be more like Norway or the USA. Have these people actually ever been to these places? I did like some elements of Norway and Oslo was like many European cities. However once we got outside of Oslo Norway was a totally different place. It kind of felt like going back in time. And if our future has plans for us being anything like the USA, then it would be EU all the way for me!

Out for sure

The membership fees would be better directed into the nhs for example.

I also do believe we should be allowed to take an aussie outlook on immigration too.

The whole world has its problems, I just think it's time the uk started to worry about the uk and no one else.

Charlie, NATO was formed to try and prevent another war. The EU was originally, before the Germans and French took control, a trade agreement. Interestingly, the French were slightly less than fully committed to NATO. French self-interest and ego undermining the concept of a unified defence organisation.

Basically the EU is a socialist organisation in my opinion. Does seem ironic Corbyn has stated his support for remaining in Europe, hence supporting Cameron's wishes. At least politicians with views on either side of the debate realise that this is more important than party politics.

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I'm for in. I've spent thirty years working throughout Europe, and my industry - identity design - would shrink overnight.

Its way short of perfect, the principles of economic convergence were never really adhered too and it would probably have felt fairer if membership were tiered until they were, but the alternative is just backward. Just look at the bunch that are pushing for brexit: Redwood, Duncan-Smith, Grayling, Gove, Fox, Farage, Galloway and Hoey - weirdos and social & political misfits all of them. And the largest block of brexit voters appears to be the retired, those that don't even contribute to the economy and 16 year olds that may even be taxpayers and are going to be affected the greatest get no say at all..

But what really does get to me is the dishonesty of it all, Europe has always been an easy target to blame for domestic problems, the press pushed it until it became the new truth and now it seems to have gone so far it can't be unsaid. The referendum was never supposed to happen, Cameron had expected to drop it as part of the demands of a coalition that never happened and now he's totally fubarred.

To all those brexiters shreiking "we're full!" and looking forward to waving goodbye to tax generating Polish plumbers and Bulgarian builders, say hello to one million returning expat retirees from Spain.

But then again, with the current push towards a new feudalism I guess us plebs are going to lose either way.

Except in a UK controlled by those who took us out of the EU for the express purpose of removing the rights of citizens they all find so tiresome ( yes, keep criticising fictitious asylum seekers cats to attack the human rights of every one of us ) , the NHS will be one of the first things to go. On the simplest of figures, UK nett contibutions to the EU were 8.6 billion in 2013, whilst EU citizens working in the UK contribute over 20 billion in tax , FAR more than all of the whining about benefit tourists claim we lose in benefits. Just like the Independence Referendum, Cameron has promised something he doesn't want and doesn't understand and is going to let it run away from him as all the lies spread.

I'm always bemused somewhat even when important matters arise, there is always room for a buzzword, in this case Brexit. Even the term right/left wing used nowadays by some just because they can seems a bit of a political show off, although this has been on the go since the 1700's The art of political jargon seems to fascinate some.Funnily enough when I come across someone in my travels who favours such terms, I'm usually reminded of other buzzwords.

Yes I do agree a bit pedantic & perhaps no big deal. Annoyed is too strong a word, I just feel everything has to have a spin on it these days & by having the odd buzzword thrown in adds to the overall situation.

There now.......

I'd much rather remain in the UK out of the EU, than remain in the EU out of the UK, so I'm currently leaning towards a tactical "out" vote to reduce the chance of another independence referendum here.

Not sure I'd agree there, Graham - if the UK votes out, the SNP will be pushing for another independence attempt to return to Europe.

How many referendums will it take? The SNP seem to be using this one as a means of opening up the whole debate once more.
I always thought that the EU would provide a open market where member countries would have an equal opportunity to trade across borders and share in the supposed benefits this would bring. It seems these days some countries are more equal than others and I doubt Scotland by itself would be welcomed back should a no vote be the result.

As I understand it the groundswell of dissatisfaction with EU's lumbering governance well predates the migrant crisis - the latter is simply the straw breaking the camel's back.
I agree that Cameron has earned a pretty paltry deal on the face of it and that could just be his undoing.

Here we go again - one can just see the political heavyweight "In's" popping up in panic on June 20th......

They've said they'll only call for another referendum if the UK votes out but Scotland as a whole votes in.

It's a tricky one to call, depending on polls nearer the time it could also be that an "in" vote here would be the tactical choice to avoid another referendum.

Actually I believe you are wrong, Nato is a defence organisation formed primarily against Russian expansion.

The EU was originally formed to prevent war between France and Germany which had been the cause of two really rather large wars......


After World War II, European integration was seen as an antidote to the extreme nationalism which had devastated the continent.The 1948 Hague Congress was a pivotal moment in European federal history, as it led to the creation of the European Movement International and of the College of Europe, where Europe's future leaders would live and study together. 1952 saw the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe."

http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm


The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was created in 1949 by the United States, Canada, and several Western European nations to provide collective security against the Soviet Union. NATO was the first peacetime military alliance the United States entered into outside of the Western Hemisphere.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=s...bHvTS8Af21IGABg

Aye Cooperman I agree on the idea back in '73 the UK joining the EU would be beneficial. The whole idea was to have a free market.

But times have changed, it's not the immigrant situation, this is used as an excuse & scare mongering. Brussels seems to have far more of a say in Britain on running our country than we do. OK things can get a bit overstated shall we say due to the press. Personally, I think that the masses in the UK wonder where our £50 million a day goes. Obviously we get some back, but do we get value for money.

The one thing that gets peoples attention is hit them where it hurts, in their pocket. Another factor I see is your post code. Up here in the sticks we don't have a big influx of migrants & life ticks over pretty gently. Especially so compared to down south.

Regarding the Scottish question. The problem here, is far more complex than you might think. Believe it or not for some of the more extreme Scots, history plays a big part & even Culloden is mentioned. Thatcher still has left her mark in Scotland for some, she certainly gets mentioned quite often & how she did not like the Scots. She was hated in Scotland. Well you get the picture. Then we have a group of Scots who genuinely think that we can go it alone with no problems at all. The young up & coming tend to agree with this.

Even if Scotland secured total independence, hypothetically that is, & even if things were hunky dory, there would still be problems between Scotland & England, but that's a whole different story. Things tend to get a bit blurred & some individuals tend to take the likes of this subject matter way too personally.

Just my thoughts...

The trade argument seems to be the key point at the centre of the debate and from what I have read / seen on tv the fact that until a no vote occurs the basis of how we would agree trade with the EU is uncertain & is "a leap in the dark" as Cameron puts it will be scaring off a number of voters.
Given we have a relatively strong economy as we are kept being told would we necessarily be at such a disadvantage at the negotiating table.
I for one would just some open & honest debate not spin.

And an open and honest debate is exactly what we are not likely to see.

There needs to be a independent analysis of the options, and given there are only a few months to go it wont happen.

I guess the question is, would you go to a party hosted by Farage, Galloway and Gove....

I cant believe it but i am with Boris Johnson and George Gallaway OUT for many reasons . Then perhaps if the uk leaves the EU we can have another referendum quickly and pre-empt Scotland /SNP wether we want them as part of the uk .Before they leave us because thats going to happen .

& here lies the problem with this idea. It will not be up to you but the electorate of Scotland whether we go solo, but realistically I can't see this happening anytime soon.

It was a tongue in cheeck comment . Dont be so sure that the brexit wont happen .