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in or out
#1563977
20/02/2016 10:16
20/02/2016 10:16
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094 highlands
jimboy
OP
Club Member 857
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OP
Club Member 857
Forum is my life
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094
highlands
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What are peoples thoughts on Europe? Should we stay or should we walk?
I remember Ted Heath signing papers back in 1973 taking the UK into the common market. No referendum, in we went. Some say we entered illegally because the British public were not consulted properly. Indeed France blocked Britain for years.
What do you all think?
I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1563995
20/02/2016 11:57
20/02/2016 11:57
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,988 Sunny Darlo
Wishy
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,988
Sunny Darlo
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In, the days when we could be conquer the world on our own from this little island are long gone.
Up yours Photobucket.
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1563997
20/02/2016 12:06
20/02/2016 12:06
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,650 Dark side of the Moon
H_R
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,650
Dark side of the Moon
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Im out
The union is great for the middle and above earners and business owners as it generally does not effect there income skill set and business owners can get on the whole, cheaper labour
The middle to low earners end up competing for jobs while the employers keep telling them how lucky they are to have a job and we wont be giving you a cost of living pay rise but you must be more productive!
I enjoy going to europe and i dont for one minute think much will change, also we wont be really any worse off
But im going to vote that way for the future generations! the poorer are getting poorer and finding it harder to compete! but its all good for business owners so vote for your own selfish needs or for whats best for the future generations of our youth!
To add i think its the freedom of movement that most want a restriction on and a fair work based visa Australian style possibly as we should not support people that have no intention of working Also i dont forget im half Italian as my grandfather was a migrant its nothing against the people just the system!
Last edited by H_R; 20/02/2016 12:09.
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1564047
20/02/2016 19:30
20/02/2016 19:30
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617 SE Essex
charlie_croker
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
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IN for me, it was I believe originally formed to prevent another major European war. Many people complain and blame EEC for problems actually caused by a far more alarming body the WTO, which seems to be unelected.
Personally I consider myself European, if we leave Europe we may find ourselves a small island very much like Taiwan competing only on cheapness of our goods and labour.
Happy
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Re: in or out
[Re: H_R]
#1564063
20/02/2016 21:19
20/02/2016 21:19
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852 Cambridge & Cotswolds
MeanRedSpider
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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Im out
The union is great for the middle and above earners and business owners as it generally does not effect there income skill set and business owners can get on the whole, cheaper labour
The middle to low earners end up competing for jobs while the employers keep telling them how lucky they are to have a job and we wont be giving you a cost of living pay rise but you must be more productive!
I enjoy going to europe and i dont for one minute think much will change, also we wont be really any worse off
But im going to vote that way for the future generations! the poorer are getting poorer and finding it harder to compete! but its all good for business owners so vote for your own selfish needs or for whats best for the future generations of our youth!
To add i think its the freedom of movement that most want a restriction on and a fair work based visa Australian style possibly as we should not support people that have no intention of working Also i dont forget im half Italian as my grandfather was a migrant its nothing against the people just the system! With this logic, it seems odd that the left-of-centre parties are all for the EU - are they now the champions of the high earners??
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Re: in or out
[Re: Cooperman]
#1564087
20/02/2016 23:10
20/02/2016 23:10
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,071 South Cambs
Barmybob
Hon Club Member: 003
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Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,071
South Cambs
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I am not wholly convinced by Europe but I am far more worried about being out than in.
The out campaign speak of reduced "Red Tape" for business but never clarify exactly what they mean by this. I sadly suspect the only elements of red tape we would loose to benefit business would be those elements that actually benefit any of us who are employed - Holidays, employment conditions and working hours for example. All the other stuff would surely still need to be complied with, even if we opted out.
After my summer trips I also have concerns when people say we should be more like Norway or the USA. Have these people actually ever been to these places? I did like some elements of Norway and Oslo was like many European cities. However once we got outside of Oslo Norway was a totally different place. It kind of felt like going back in time. And if our future has plans for us being anything like the USA, then it would be EU all the way for me!
Gone Audi mad!
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Re: in or out
[Re: charlie_croker]
#1564096
21/02/2016 00:31
21/02/2016 00:31
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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Charlie, NATO was formed to try and prevent another war. The EU was originally, before the Germans and French took control, a trade agreement. Interestingly, the French were slightly less than fully committed to NATO. French self-interest and ego undermining the concept of a unified defence organisation.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: in or out
[Re: MeanRedSpider]
#1564097
21/02/2016 00:36
21/02/2016 00:36
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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With this logic, it seems odd that the left-of-centre parties are all for the EU - are they now the champions of the high earners?? Basically the EU is a socialist organisation in my opinion. Does seem ironic Corbyn has stated his support for remaining in Europe, hence supporting Cameron's wishes. At least politicians with views on either side of the debate realise that this is more important than party politics.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: in or out
[Re: Roadking]
#1564099
21/02/2016 00:43
21/02/2016 00:43
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144 Southampton, Hants
Roadking
Club member 1809
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Club member 1809
Forum is my life
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
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]
Last edited by Roadking; 21/02/2016 00:44.
"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1564100
21/02/2016 00:43
21/02/2016 00:43
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FreakinFreak
Unregistered
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FreakinFreak
Unregistered
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I'm for in. I've spent thirty years working throughout Europe, and my industry - identity design - would shrink overnight.
Its way short of perfect, the principles of economic convergence were never really adhered too and it would probably have felt fairer if membership were tiered until they were, but the alternative is just backward. Just look at the bunch that are pushing for brexit: Redwood, Duncan-Smith, Grayling, Gove, Fox, Farage, Galloway and Hoey - weirdos and social & political misfits all of them. And the largest block of brexit voters appears to be the retired, those that don't even contribute to the economy and 16 year olds that may even be taxpayers and are going to be affected the greatest get no say at all..
But what really does get to me is the dishonesty of it all, Europe has always been an easy target to blame for domestic problems, the press pushed it until it became the new truth and now it seems to have gone so far it can't be unsaid. The referendum was never supposed to happen, Cameron had expected to drop it as part of the demands of a coalition that never happened and now he's totally fubarred.
To all those brexiters shreiking "we're full!" and looking forward to waving goodbye to tax generating Polish plumbers and Bulgarian builders, say hello to one million returning expat retirees from Spain.
But then again, with the current push towards a new feudalism I guess us plebs are going to lose either way.
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Re: in or out
[Re: zigman36]
#1564103
21/02/2016 01:28
21/02/2016 01:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 611 Aberdeenshire,Scotland
Azzura
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 611
Aberdeenshire,Scotland
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Out for sure
The membership fees would be better directed into the nhs for example.
Except in a UK controlled by those who took us out of the EU for the express purpose of removing the rights of citizens they all find so tiresome ( yes, keep criticising fictitious asylum seekers cats to attack the human rights of every one of us ) , the NHS will be one of the first things to go. On the simplest of figures, UK nett contibutions to the EU were 8.6 billion in 2013, whilst EU citizens working in the UK contribute over 20 billion in tax , FAR more than all of the whining about benefit tourists claim we lose in benefits. Just like the Independence Referendum, Cameron has promised something he doesn't want and doesn't understand and is going to let it run away from him as all the lies spread.
Yesterday Sprint Blue 20VT,today Denim Blue TT225
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1564106
21/02/2016 01:42
21/02/2016 01:42
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094 highlands
jimboy
OP
Club Member 857
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OP
Club Member 857
Forum is my life
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094
highlands
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I'm always bemused somewhat even when important matters arise, there is always room for a buzzword, in this case Brexit. Even the term right/left wing used nowadays by some just because they can seems a bit of a political show off, although this has been on the go since the 1700's The art of political jargon seems to fascinate some.Funnily enough when I come across someone in my travels who favours such terms, I'm usually reminded of other buzzwords. Yes I do agree a bit pedantic & perhaps no big deal. Annoyed is too strong a word, I just feel everything has to have a spin on it these days & by having the odd buzzword thrown in adds to the overall situation. There now.......
I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1564107
21/02/2016 01:54
21/02/2016 01:54
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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I'd much rather remain in the UK out of the EU, than remain in the EU out of the UK, so I'm currently leaning towards a tactical "out" vote to reduce the chance of another independence referendum here.
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Re: in or out
[Re: barnacle]
#1564116
21/02/2016 09:18
21/02/2016 09:18
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,306 Kent, South East
Cooperman
Former Club Membership Secretary
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Former Club Membership Secretary
My job on the forum
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,306
Kent, South East
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Not sure I'd agree there, Graham - if the UK votes out, the SNP will be pushing for another independence attempt to return to Europe. How many referendums will it take? The SNP seem to be using this one as a means of opening up the whole debate once more. I always thought that the EU would provide a open market where member countries would have an equal opportunity to trade across borders and share in the supposed benefits this would bring. It seems these days some countries are more equal than others and I doubt Scotland by itself would be welcomed back should a no vote be the result.
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Re: in or out
[Re: Azzura]
#1564128
21/02/2016 11:18
21/02/2016 11:18
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,834 Auld Reekie
Edinburgh
Club President, member225
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Club President, member225
Forum veteran
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,834
Auld Reekie
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Out for sure
The membership fees would be better directed into the nhs for example.
Except in a UK controlled by those who took us out of the EU for the express purpose of removing the rights of citizens they all find so tiresome ( yes, keep criticising fictitious asylum seekers cats to attack the human rights of every one of us ) , the NHS will be one of the first things to go. On the simplest of figures, UK nett contibutions to the EU were 8.6 billion in 2013, whilst EU citizens working in the UK contribute over 20 billion in tax , FAR more than all of the whining about benefit tourists claim we lose in benefits. Just like the Independence Referendum, Cameron has promised something he doesn't want and doesn't understand and is going to let it run away from him as all the lies spread. As I understand it the groundswell of dissatisfaction with EU's lumbering governance well predates the migrant crisis - the latter is simply the straw breaking the camel's back. I agree that Cameron has earned a pretty paltry deal on the face of it and that could just be his undoing. Here we go again - one can just see the political heavyweight "In's" popping up in panic on June 20th......
BumbleBee carer
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Re: in or out
[Re: barnacle]
#1564131
21/02/2016 11:37
21/02/2016 11:37
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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GrahamL
Unregistered
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if the UK votes out, the SNP will be pushing for another independence attempt to return to Europe. They've said they'll only call for another referendum if the UK votes out but Scotland as a whole votes in. It's a tricky one to call, depending on polls nearer the time it could also be that an "in" vote here would be the tactical choice to avoid another referendum.
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Re: in or out
[Re: Roadking]
#1564145
21/02/2016 14:57
21/02/2016 14:57
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617 SE Essex
charlie_croker
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,617
SE Essex
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Charlie, NATO was formed to try and prevent another war. The EU was originally, before the Germans and French took control, a trade agreement. Interestingly, the French were slightly less than fully committed to NATO. French self-interest and ego undermining the concept of a unified defence organisation. Actually I believe you are wrong, Nato is a defence organisation formed primarily against Russian expansion. The EU was originally formed to prevent war between France and Germany which had been the cause of two really rather large wars...... After World War II, European integration was seen as an antidote to the extreme nationalism which had devastated the continent.The 1948 Hague Congress was a pivotal moment in European federal history, as it led to the creation of the European Movement International and of the College of Europe, where Europe's future leaders would live and study together. 1952 saw the creation of the European Coal and Steel Community, which was declared to be "a first step in the federation of Europe." http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm The North Atlantic Treaty Organization was created in 1949 by the United States, Canada, and several Western European nations to provide collective security against the Soviet Union. NATO was the first peacetime military alliance the United States entered into outside of the Western Hemisphere. https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=s...bHvTS8Af21IGABg
Happy
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Re: in or out
[Re: Cooperman]
#1564146
21/02/2016 14:57
21/02/2016 14:57
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094 highlands
jimboy
OP
Club Member 857
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OP
Club Member 857
Forum is my life
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094
highlands
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Not sure I'd agree there, Graham - if the UK votes out, the SNP will be pushing for another independence attempt to return to Europe. How many referendums will it take? The SNP seem to be using this one as a means of opening up the whole debate once more. I always thought that the EU would provide a open market where member countries would have an equal opportunity to trade across borders and share in the supposed benefits this would bring. It seems these days some countries are more equal than others and I doubt Scotland by itself would be welcomed back should a no vote be the result. Aye Cooperman I agree on the idea back in '73 the UK joining the EU would be beneficial. The whole idea was to have a free market. But times have changed, it's not the immigrant situation, this is used as an excuse & scare mongering. Brussels seems to have far more of a say in Britain on running our country than we do. OK things can get a bit overstated shall we say due to the press. Personally, I think that the masses in the UK wonder where our £50 million a day goes. Obviously we get some back, but do we get value for money. The one thing that gets peoples attention is hit them where it hurts, in their pocket. Another factor I see is your post code. Up here in the sticks we don't have a big influx of migrants & life ticks over pretty gently. Especially so compared to down south. Regarding the Scottish question. The problem here, is far more complex than you might think. Believe it or not for some of the more extreme Scots, history plays a big part & even Culloden is mentioned. Thatcher still has left her mark in Scotland for some, she certainly gets mentioned quite often & how she did not like the Scots. She was hated in Scotland. Well you get the picture. Then we have a group of Scots who genuinely think that we can go it alone with no problems at all. The young up & coming tend to agree with this. Even if Scotland secured total independence, hypothetically that is, & even if things were hunky dory, there would still be problems between Scotland & England, but that's a whole different story. Things tend to get a bit blurred & some individuals tend to take the likes of this subject matter way too personally. Just my thoughts...
I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1564155
21/02/2016 18:17
21/02/2016 18:17
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 776 State of Essex .
robcoupe20vt
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 776
State of Essex .
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I cant believe it but i am with Boris Johnson and George Gallaway OUT for many reasons . Then perhaps if the uk leaves the EU we can have another referendum quickly and pre-empt Scotland /SNP wether we want them as part of the uk .Before they leave us because thats going to happen .
Last edited by robcoupe20vt; 21/02/2016 18:18.
Fiat 20VT Fiat 16vt Fiat 130TC Fiat 131 sport Kawasaki ZX6RP7F Kawasaki GPZ550 Kawasaki ZX7R P2
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Re: in or out
[Re: robcoupe20vt]
#1564157
21/02/2016 19:21
21/02/2016 19:21
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094 highlands
jimboy
OP
Club Member 857
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OP
Club Member 857
Forum is my life
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,094
highlands
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I cant believe it but i am with Boris Johnson and George Gallaway OUT for many reasons . Then perhaps if the uk leaves the EU we can have another referendum quickly and pre-empt Scotland /SNP wether we want them as part of the uk .Before they leave us because thats going to happen . & here lies the problem with this idea. It will not be up to you but the electorate of Scotland whether we go solo, but realistically I can't see this happening anytime soon.
I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
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Re: in or out
[Re: jimboy]
#1564159
21/02/2016 19:51
21/02/2016 19:51
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 776 State of Essex .
robcoupe20vt
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 776
State of Essex .
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I cant believe it but i am with Boris Johnson and George Gallaway OUT for many reasons . Then perhaps if the uk leaves the EU we can have another referendum quickly and pre-empt Scotland /SNP wether we want them as part of the uk .Before they leave us because thats going to happen . & here lies the problem with this idea. It will not be up to you but the electorate of Scotland whether we go solo, but realistically I can't see this happening anytime soon. It was a tongue in cheeck comment . Dont be so sure that the brexit wont happen .
Fiat 20VT Fiat 16vt Fiat 130TC Fiat 131 sport Kawasaki ZX6RP7F Kawasaki GPZ550 Kawasaki ZX7R P2
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