I nearly agree and am voting to stay in ,,can't stand Corbyn though, and come from a different political persuasion . we are doing well in the EU all these jobs that have been created shows we must be doing something right.

I'm a definate 'out' .

There's nothing Ive seen during this campaign, nor in the past 40 years, that has been able to convince me otherwise.

Things like 'creating jobs' is meaningless when you consider , say, a million jobs created........... but three million coming over to take the jobs and more.

Hopefully we WILL exit from the European Union and make every effort to return to the European Economic Community (the basis of the last referendum in the 70's so corruptly EUnionised by all political parties ever since). Its unfortunate that it will take over a generation to make good the damage already done, but that scenario is far better than the alternative of multiple future generations being saddled with the inept political enforced joining of individual nations. The USSR tried it and took the best part of a century to realise its failure, and we cant replicate that stupid mistake here.

And whats the logic of making your decisions based on who certain people are from each of the sides????. That smacks of total short sightedness and not having your own mind, surely ?. Just as well be a lemming and jump off the cliff if the vote that you are going to make is based on the hatred of one person and idolisation of another.

Another thing to remember is that this referendum has no actual standing in parliamentary process where sovereignity is held by Ministers only. All the vote does is give an 'opinion' to parliament to consider. And it could take them 10 years to 'consider' before making a decision !.

The 1975 referendum question put to the people
"Do you think the UK should stay in the European Community (Common Market)?"
Wherabouts does it say anything about European Union?. We've been had !.

I could go on.............. but I won't !.

Admins can we have a new thread with a pol thats locked so people can just vote on the poll....

Would be interesting to see the results :-)

Yes that's a good idea. Another forum I visit has one running and it currently stands at -

Leave - 68.14%
Remain - 21.24%
Undecided - 7.96%
Not voting - 2.65%

Judas!!!!!

That'll be the Pug owners forum. Probably has a moderation job in the interior comfort thread :)))))

YET AGAIN!!!

A poll says it's 'on a knife-edge'. Too close to call.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/eu-referendum/65461/eu-referendum-poll-of-polls-puts-camps-at-5050

Can anyone remember an election when it wasn't?

Maybe I am not reading the right papers but the pollsters seem to have been keeping very quiet over the referendum, maybe because they got it wrong on the election outcome?
I am still having a laugh over the fact that the leaflet that the government issued costing £9.3M of taxpayers money is alleged to have been printed in Germany

I am still looking at voting to leave particularly if it would have the added benefit of watching Cameron resign the day after a majority out being the outcome.

A majority out result would seem odd given:

Labour are for staying
Lib Dems are for staying
SNP are for staying
Half the Tories are for staying

What will be interesting is if the vote is to leave, the Scots force another referendum and leave UK and you then need a passport to cross into Scotland (in order to stop those pesky Europeans stealing "our jobs"......)

I'm an inny.

My job relies on quite a few EU Directives !

Well, that's another thing that we seem to forget. Currently we are "in the tent" with a chance to influence things and maintain our national interests (even that can be hard at times) but, if we are outside the tent, we will still need to comply (if we want to sell to EU) but without any influence.

The problem with referenda is that the great British public are very uninformed about the issues (and, frankly, plenty on both sides are not smart enough to understand the issues) yet they get exactly the same shout as those that do understand. It seems a pretty stupid way to run a country. At least with political parties you vote more broadly for people that fit your sense of values.

Most people who want to vote out are doing so because they think people are stealing "our jobs" without considering the wider issues (like whether these jobs would exist at all without our membership).

What I find concerning is that a lot of people are basing their view on the fact that being 'in' isn't working, so surely out must be better. I'm not picking on you, but what do you think the advantages of being 'out' are?

I echo MRS's comments that waste swathes of the general public don't have an informed opinion on this.

However, I don't think it's necessarily their fault. I mean, who are you supposed to believe over the 'facts' that keep getting thrown about? A politician with a view to stay will offer a fact that completely contradicts a fact someone else just offered as a reason for leaving.

As a result of this, I'll probably be voting to remain in the EU. IMO the status quo isn't that bad and I'd rather we stuck with what we know than take a massive risk because it *might* be better.

For me IN works.

The business I work in has had huge benefits from being in, they are on record as saying out would be a huge risk and cause massive uncertainty.

Personally I benefit from many of these horrible EU directives of which everyone speaks. They have made my workplace much safer, protected my employment rights when we were sold. and prevented my employer from even considering truly horrible shift patterns and work hours.

The fact that I have an opportunity, should I wish to exercise it, of living somewhere different in Europe without any real restriction is also hugely tempting.

All I can see for voting out is some emotive out-dated patriotism. There are people hiding behind a flag just itching to turn the clock back and exploit the working folk by stripping away their protections and rights. I am sure many of those wanting out just see an opportunity to make themselves richer on the backs of others. Proper Victorian values, oh the good old days.

It's all pomp. No one can give an honest answer, either for trade or cost or national security wise as to the true tangible benefits and costs of being in the EU. It's easy to spin the good and the bad, it's easy to take things out of context to push a point home. Some people have there feelings, some people know it will impact them or their business directly others don't have a clue.
The simple facts are we know what we have now, we don't know what we would get if we pulled out.
I'd love to see the due diligence done before this referendum was announced to show what changes, risks and benefits there are. I feel it doesn't exist, if the country was a business and the voters were shareholders then then it would, and the shareholders could make an informed and honest decision.

Personally it worries me that this kind of decision is made by a mass of ill informed people many of whom will vote based on migration and subsidies who's values are quoted to horrify but not put into context.
I'm totally undecided, I do know JC and DC are not fit for purpose and don't seem to have a grasp on reality.

That seems a bit harsh, but probably fair... Oh, you mean Jeremy Corbyn.

Watching Question Time on Thursday it was such a load of tosh - nobody could give a convincing argument either way. Just so-much waffle and nonsense. I don't think it is possible to predict what would happen if we leave. And personally I don't like that. It's a bit arrogant and British Empire to assume we would be better off.

As for Jeremy Corbyn, what's not to like? I am disgusted by this government's treatment of the sick, the disabled, and the dying. JC will put a stop to all that. And go after the tax evaders. And make British Rail OURS again. If you listen to his speeches he really is brilliant, I have yet to disagree with him on anything. I like John McDonnell very much too. And please don't tell me that Labour are to blame for the country's finances. Even the ex governor of the bank of England has scuppered that idea. Osborne is a complete idiot who is in way over his head. He has increased the debt and missed all his own targets, even with austerity measures. Personally I think there should be no need for food banks and increasing homelessness in the sixth richest country in the world. I hate this government, they are self-serving toffs with no idea what it is like to have to walk around Tesco adding up the items as you go along incase you don't have enough money. Teachers are having to take food to school for the hungry children. Wolves look after their less able better than we do!

To me the whole referendum is a cop out by politicians who were forced into a corner by a vocal minority of MPs.

Our elected leaders either lacked the balls to stand up to that minority, or were terrified of doing what they were elected to do.
Good leaders use facts to enable them to make balanced judgements and resolve issues using our elected representatives in parliament.

As it is we have the worst of all worlds where the general population is expected to decide a fundamental issue on the basis of propaganda rather than hard facts.

For the record, I am very firmly on the "in" side.

I'm old enough to remember travelling through a fragmented Europe, with all the attendant restrictions on travel and trade.

When I started work 2 weeks paid annual holiday was the norm and there was minimal employment protection.

Our membership, initially of the EEC which became the EU has enriched our lives beyond measure, not just those in the UK but throughout the continent.

I certainly don't begrudge the miserable half a percent or so of my income tax which is all our membership costs the ordinary taxpayer.

So the Spaniards have benefitted from my contribution? Great I can jump on a £29.99 flight and be there in less than 4 hour s from home.
The French have benefitted? No problem, I used to live there under exactly the same rules as a native born citizen.

Go back to the old pre EU days and lose all influence in how the community develops while having to obey its rules if we are too trade with them?

No thanks.

I include myself in the great swathes of people unable to make a properly-informed decision.
I'm still undecided, although my instinct (perhaps because I've lived in 3 EU member states and my job is intimately linked with another EU language and culture) is to remain. I find I am more convinced by the calmer arguments made by the rather unfortunately-acronymed Britain Stronger in Europe (or BSE). It makes sense to me that trying to survive as the plucky Brits on the outside of our biggest trading partners' party will result in our economy being bullied and weakened, however many special bi-partisan deals we are able to secure. Why would other countries want to trade with us, when to do so might cost them more either directly or indirectly in lost reciprocal trade with the vastly stronger European bloc.

What I am much less impressed with, is the heavy reliance by Cameron and Osborne, on the "there be monsters" argument, suggesting that we "just don't know" what will happen if the UK leaves the EU.
Sorry, but that is not a persuasive position and it certainly won't win over undecided voters looking for a solid, tangible reason to stay in.
Regardless of how I end up voting, the In-crowd needs to come up with some much snappier reasons to counter the comparatively over-excited Vote Leave champions.

My (uninformed, perhaps) view of the Out campaigners is that, by and large, they seem angrier, more aggressive and almost proud in a - to me, at least - peculiar way, that what they want is seen as carrying more risk.
They seem to think they represent the interests of the plucky Brit small entrepreneur, with an undercurrent of (inappropriate) "Dunkirk" spirit. Chaps, Dunkirk was a humiliating defeat and I'm as small a business as it gets and I'm not sure you're fighting my corner.
It feels like the "Up yours!" culture, which is no basis on which to make foreign policy.

I would also like to stick up for AnnieMac in her comment about voting according to the personalities involved. It is a perfectly reasonable approach, in particular given the paucity of easily-digestible facts to work with.

If you judge a man by the company he keeps, then I'll *definitely* be voting to remain in the EU. I cannot imagine supporting ANY cause championed by a combination of George Galloway, Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan-Smith and Michael Gove. Certainly, by the same rationale, it'll be tough siding with Tony Blair, but - unless someone can give me some FACTS to convince me otherwise, it may be the way I go.

Pete, I agree with an awful lot of your points above and looking back yes there have been various benefits of being in the EU,likely on balance more than the negative aspects many have noted.
My real concern over staying in is with how it will affect our futures and that of our children.
I hear of there being real reforms being made to our membership but see little evidence of what these are or how they will benefit us in the future.
In my view at some point in the future there will be a situation where ever closer union may be inevitable. Individual nations have a limited voice / influence and those nations with the stronger Financial standing seem to be dictating the terms. is the EU a place where we all stand equal? I am not at all certain

Ashley, if we take an analogy to extremes, federalisation serves both Germany and the United States pretty well, not that I expect the EU go that far in the foreseeable future.

I will be happier for my son's and my grandchildren's futures in a country which is an integral member of a powerful group rather than living in a state existing on the fringes of some future superpower.

I still believe you are best to vote based on your position in the workforce market and if you employ low skilled people or rent to the bottom end of the social scale you will vote one way and if your competing for a low wage job your more likely to vote the other!

Also don't forget there is talk of Turkey joining and how many others too
It is in my opinion that being a member of the Eu will keep unskilled wages down with not much benefit to the uk tax payers as the more people that are on low wages or benefits means we need to pay out more to support them so it's a visous spiral down until everybody has no money

Leaving there is talk about prices is going up! hmmm is that bad? hopefully we can start to get some wage inflation and perhaps there will be less demand on the housing market then just perhaps my kids can afford a reasonable house without struggling to pay the mortgage! And houses won't get built in the slightest nook and cranny!

The biggest worry is working rights remaining protected! But we (uk) always boast how we are leaders in safety and workers and animals welfare/rights so would it really change?
Jobs during recession austerity the gov was boasting about how the economy adapted and how wonderfully resourceful we all were!
So I think it is an uncertainty but what isn't

Not a single person can actually say what is best for everybody! Nobody knows! You've got to go on an educated guess and hope it's not any worse than now

Somebody said on the radio we are told it's not worth taking any risks best to stay as we are! If we all lived out life like that we wouldn't get anywhere and it would be very dull

I'm not a 100% certain leaving is the right decision but I'm definitely 60/40 to leave! Just hope that whatever happens works out best for the majority!
There are always winners and losers in any government decision and the publics voted in party, so whatever happens it won't be right for everybody but hopefully it will be for the majority!

Well, access to cheap labour in China has caused a "visous spiral down" for that country, hasn't it?

In my experience, we need the labour else we don't have anybody. And the model is that the country as a whole benefits through the "multiplier" effect: each job created creates another 6 in the local economy.

I'm also not sure how wage inflation reduces house prices - except maybe because interest rates go up (thus making houses potentially cheaper to buy but more expensive to mortgage therefore not really solving anything for those at the entry level). Rents will then go up. Savers will benefit - and save rather than spend their money.

No - I can't precisely predict what will happen but, in the same way as I don't think Scotland would be better off outside the UK, I don't think the UK (minus Scotland, inevitably) will be better off outside the EU.

I once went on a negotiating skills course run by a Havard professor. We did loads of scenarios in teams. Without exception, the group's that did the best cooperated because, in that way, we created the biggest "pie". I see the EU as our way of creating the biggest "pie". Everybody benefits.

As I've said, most of this is either pomp or speculation.

Jim, maybe your translation skills will be in higher demand with more paper work and red tape if we leave the EU?

Perhaps the next government will use the adverse EU subsidies to improve public transport and the NHS?

Maybe the slow down in immigration and not having to bring people in will create the need for our young to realise that university isn't the only answer and brickies, sparkies etc is actually a worth while vocation, and when the cheap labour has gone then they can make a living out of it.

Maybe, if,but... We can go on forever guessing and surmising. Nothing I've read on any of this feels like it can be substantiated, I want facts not opinion and scaremongering.

MRS Sorry I was referring to the low skilled employees and yes their well being has definitely declined in China with the very very poor and the very rich

The wage inflation was not directly linked with house prices was meaning with the hopefull slow down of the population increase the demand for houses may start to dwindle returning houses perhaps to a more sensible price!

Big Muzzle your right there is definitely a shortage of trades my company is now having to employ 60 year old electricians as the younger guys either want to earn more house bashing or they are not upto the job with poor knowledge even though they are qualified electricians!

Definitely the worst prepared for vote I have ever seen nobody actually knows anything

It's interesting how we see things differently. I want the UK to work as well as it can for everyone who lives within it. I certainly wouldn't disagree that things could be done differently to equalise household incomes. However Corbyn doesn't have a clue, along with the rest of the labour party and their policies. Labour did also completely screw up the country. However the Tories would have done exactly the same. Finally the policies put in place over the last few years have ensured our economy is striding ahead of many others!

I don't know if my view is BM's "pomp" but I simply don't see what you're saying about China. I spend a fair bit of time in China and the standard of living of the general population has increased in even the 14 years I've been going there.

I also don't understand what you're saying about the population going down. Where are all these people now and what are they doing? Since unemployment isn't particularly high, then I guess many of them are working. If they are working, they are contributing to our economy and taxes. If they go away, they won't be.

And when they go away, how do you anticipate filling the skills gaps you have? The people who currently can't be bothered to do an apprenticeship will suddenly decide it's worthwhile?

The good news in your model is that house prices will drop because there will be less work available and higher (rather than lower) unemployment kinda like Greece or Spain.

The one consistent aspect in these post seems to be that we all wish we had more facts and background information as to how either scenario may pan out and that seems to me to be a rather sad situation given how we are all plugged into technology these days.
To be honest I never expected we would ever be in this position to vote either way and I am sure we not likely get another.

Very clear that (a) no one really has any idea about the true consequence of in or out. (b) no one really understands the process if out is chosen and (c) no one really understands the benefits of either option. Not just talking about this discussion, but the general populous and the MP's.

I suspect the same is true for most all MP's (well, they only know what they are told anyway ... simply faces for the media). Their whips will know and they are likely thinking about and discussing with MP's the option that decides ... what is best for my job....

Typical farce..... This is important for future generations ... our children and their children, what is more important than that?

I get very irritated by the jobs argument. It seems there are a chunk of people who think that if we were to leave, all the Eastern Europeans would suddenly go back. That is nonsense. Many - probably most - are now settled. They have jobs, their kids go to school, they have mortgages, they have social networks. So many will stay. Their lives are here. In much the same way, I don't expect Continental Europe will empty of Brits.

I recently had the misfortune of being in a hospital with one of my kids. If it were not for migrant workers that place would collapse. The catering, the cleaning and the general upkeep seemed to be almost exclusively carried out by migrants. These are people who could see the potential for a better life somewhere else, and who had the wherewithal and the bravery to go for it. So they left home, came here, and took jobs that many Brits wouldn't take. They contribute to society while paying their taxes. If things were the other way round, I expect I'd do the same. And if they did leave, who would clean the floors of the hospitals, and care for the elderly?