I wonder what impact us leaving would have on the EU? No one is really mentioning this aspect? Well, here in Azerbaijan, no one is mentioning anything about it .. as no one really cares....

Good example of a country reaping the benefits of significant EU 'involvement' without so many of the drawbacks. If it's possible for a non-European country...

Whilst I bow to yours and Patch's infinitely greater knowledge about matters Azeri, I'm not sure the relationship between the UK and the EU would ever be remotely similar to that between Brussels and Baku.

I did ask this a few messages back and I think it might start the demise of the Eu! Possibly why nobody is highlighting it certainly the stay party!
Surely it's going to put extra burden on the wealthier states that pay the most with the U.K. Gone (theoretically) means that they would need to make up the difference!?

Also what would be the effect of Germany leaving? Surprised the leave party is not painting this as a bleak possibility as I'm sure we would then be very keen to leave especially with the other Eastern European countries posed to join then turkey on top of that!

I speak to a lot of small business owners. Despite media coverage, they aren't all rolling in money. Many earn the same or less than their employees and have to work very hard for it. My own poll so far is around 10 to stay in, 1 to leave.

what is their primary concern as a small business owner?

That is very interesting (especially as I am a small business).

Completely agree with you Jim but by the same measure I believe some facets of our existing relationship need to be renegotiated. Unfortunately that's not an option, as proven by Cameron last year. The outcome of his challenge was eminently predictable. Remaining in will surely signify acceptance of our continued, involuntarily-muted subservience as EU meddling increases. An out vote for me is the only protest left available and I'm genuinely optimistic that it would pave the way for a better relationship to flourish.
For the record, I agree with a number of points and concerns voiced by those in the yes camp but am deeply suspicious some of the risks are grossly exaggerated. Our exit should not unequivocally preclude any potential to retain or re-establish mutually beneficial arrangements, it's not "the end". If the EU value our input then they should be open to future involvement. Right now they've no incentive to listen.

Ditto

Reading your Facebook feed Jim, it's Yorkshire Owls Weekday Soccerball Team isn't it??

WAWAW

The problem is exactly the same as it was during the Scottish independence poll: nobody knows what will happen. Which means the 'out' crowd can only claim things will be better while the 'status quo' crowd can only maintain that any change will be likely for the worst.

Nobody stands up and says 'I'm for it because I expect this, that, and the other to happen, and it will make me richer'; and nobody stands up and says 'I'm against it because I expect this, that, and the other to happen, and it will be a bad thing'. They don't say that because *nobody knows*.

So instead the demagogues on both sides play with vague threats to hoi polloi, most of whom give this the same careful consideration they gave as to which football team they support.

Pah.

Mario and Jim- Because they believe that within the EU is the best place for them and their business. At the simplest level, it is the uncertainty. Certainty plays a big role in business. I know of quite a few manufacturing businesses that have seen BIG orders put on hold because of what may/may not happen. There is enough uncertainty already, without adding another layer of complication.

There has been a lot of red tape created over the years and plenty of employee rights, but I don't know many owners that resent the latter. They just want to run their businesses, get on with life and make sure their staff are happy. Most business owners we come into contact with believe workers in the UK get a good deal and the balance is generally fair. Most are not creaming huge profits off their staff.

Clearly there are many who are 'low paid' and can barely exist on these wages. The balance between rich and poor is increasing, but the taxation of the poor is falling dramatically. However my own view is that this situation is exacerbated by the world we live in of ever increasing costs/dependencies and items which are now deemed essential. A prime example of how this affects general life is the provision of care for the elderly. We look after the accounting function of around 8-10 care homes. With the introduction of the living wage, the cost of care is skyrocketing. It's the only way the model can work. The industry is in crisis. Do the owners of these businesses want to add the EU into the mix? The answer is clear.

My own simple view is that a large portion of those wanting out of the EU don't have to deal with issues such as those above. Their view is too simplistic and doesn't factor in what makes our economy tick- small businesses. Most of the owners I have spoken to don't believe that the general public (including themselves) should be able to vote on this. It's too important.

I have one more yes to add to the list and one who doesn't care either way. His view is that the EU will fall apart in the medium term whether we leave or not.

I am out for the sole reason that it would be great to see the conservative party implode, with CMD flippflopping on every issue and then deciding that being out was what the really wanted to after all and running for a third term.

I think there will be a bit of slow down in the UK if out, slower growth, but higher wage bills but then on the plus side maybe a realisation that growth isn't everything and some normalisation of the property market (HA!!!!!)

The people that I have met from the EU hav (in the main) tended to be a lot nicer than the stereotypes afforded to them by the media. In fact I think i prefer to them to the "rest of the world".

I will still have to queue to get in or out of the country either way.

In or Out, I think the Tory party, in it's current form is dead.
In, and all the sceptics split to join a rebranded UKIP, OUT and.....well god knows where the more moderate tories go... a new SDP?


Given the total lack of a grown up debate in the media, mot people will vote either on propaganda or instinct.
Neither of which are good for democracy.

In an effort to try to better understand the background to how we got where we are now I have been reading various articles and the history of the "European Project" seems be be littered with politicians and advisors who initially felt we would be better in what started simply as a Common trading market place but gradually morphed into this Single European super state only to realise way too late what they had signed us into.
It seems that number of treaty changes over the years were either rushed through parliament or kept very low key that we never had a chance to review or vote on.
It seems ironic that the Conservative party who were begging the French to let us join for over a decade then found a leader in Mrs T who later wrote
"That such an unnecessary and irrational project as building a European super-state was ever embarked on will seem in future years to be perhaps the greatest folly of the modern era"

If the EU does eventually fail as many critics say it will in time are we better off on deck or do we bail early and try and make it to a life raft?

To those who want to leave, I would just suggest that the timing is a bit awkward. Is there any burning need to leave now, or can it wait? My own perspective tells me that what we really need more than anything at the moment is economic stability. We are still crawling out of the hole of 2008/9, and a move as major as this would be extremely disruptive to that process.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36457120

There's a surprise.

So we may have a free vote but the Tories are looking to scupper the process in the event of a majority Brexit outcome. So much for democracy!

If you read the article properly, you'll see it says. . .





That's made up of ALL parties.

Hope that helps

Well, I've voted. For better or worse.

They still have to get voted in next time. And the electorate don't forgive easily..

Point taken regards the overall mix of pro remain v leave MP's and Tories slender majority but the fact remains that our elected representatives could decide to ignore the will of the people in the event of a brexit vote.

Madness

I am really quite brassed off that the BBC, in my rose-tinted glasses sort of way a bastion of impartiality and dependability, have consistently headlined ONE piece of anti-Brexit propaganda per day whilst either ignoring anything 'pro' or merely slotting underneath, in a token gesture and in tiny print, a counter-statement.

We 'ere are still swithering but the constant drip of bias - very similar to before the Scottish referendum - is getting totally on my t1ts

After watching the ITV debate, my condolences go out to the good people of South Northamptonshire, Andrea Ludsom - what a relic of 1950's style condescension - I may not know much, but I know what's best for you. Good grief.

Same bias again today from BBC website.

Whereas Sarah Wollaston received headline coverage yesterday for defecting to the Remain campaign, today Labour's John Mann's decision to vote out has been give a smaller typeface headline than a warning about a possible emergency budget after Brexit and a possible new treatment for MS.

Don't know if anyone watched Question Time last night but I thought the representation by Eddie Izzard, of whose comedy I am a great fan, shot the Remain campaign in the foot - the mention of Blair on the same day might not have been very attractive to some either.

Agree. What an odious woman.

And yet a campaign (an ill-fated one, as it turns out) was launched condemning the BBC's chief political reporter, Laura Kuenssberg, for anti-Labour bias and calling for her to be sacked.

Damned if they do...

Eddie Izzard's comedy was peerless until about 2002. It was instrumental in me meeting MrsC and I still find myself quoting from it. However, since that time, he has become so self-referential and seemingly unable to come up with decent new material that a faintly embarrassing career in politics was always likely.

Good at running, mind, though perhaps not in the electoral sense. I mourn him as a great comedian.

It's the same *every* day, in one respect or another, from the Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda. Especially on their "news" site.

I recommend cancelling your TV license, at least then you know you're not personally financing their shit.

As for the vote, I'm still undecided. Despite all the scare mongering from each side I'm slowly concluding that it won't really make all that much difference either way, as the same corporate, globalist interests will continue pulling the strings pretty much as before.

Exactly, the daily drip.

One thing I have great difficulty with is the apparent belief that we, as UK citizens, are somehow incapable - with all our expertise in manufacturing, arts, business - of making responsible decisions for this country, and seem to be happy to delegate many of these to EU HQ in Brussels whose members are not only unknown to us but unelected.

If we have any pride in our own country and citizens left, what message is this delegation of power giving to us?

It's a paradox that the cavalier attitude of Westminster (as 'captain of the ship') towards Scotland over the years quietly fuelled the rise in Scottish Nationalism which has recently come to a head.