It must be. Each and every one of them seems to have forgotten their reciprocal rights to live, work, and claim benefits in thirty other countries...

This wonderful song is very prophetic, and as we all go through our short bickering lives this is probably how it will turn out in time!!

If we don't blow the planet up first!!!

Or get potted into a black hole! in a game of intergalactic bar billiards.

https://youtu.be/zAWn4FO1MOw

I can't decide if you have a completely different sense of humour to me or you are arrogant enough to believe other people must be stupid because they have a different opinion to you. If you start from the basis that people may have voted because of their circumstances or experiences you might have some empathy. They vast majority of the 17m outers would not want to live or work abroad nor claim benefits there. All they probably want is for their country to look after them and their children and grandchildren first.

The vast majority who have been interviewed have given reasons which only reflected what they have heard about the experiences or circumstances of others or refer to the proven lies of the Leave campaign, already left in the gutter by them, and far too many have given reasons which patently have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with membership of the EU. 2 million UK citizens are working and living in the EU, exercising those rights you arrogantly dismiss. The EU was not something done to us, it was something we were a part of. What was done to us was done by our own government - budgets for healthcare, welfare, education, defence, infrastructure - all slashed to the bone and beyond by the deliberate policies of the UK government who then let you believe it was down to there being too many EU migrants in the country ( the same EU migrants who actually produced a £10 billion net gain to the UKs budget ). When people vote Leave but then say they didn't think their vote would count, that it was a protest, that they didn't mean it, that they did it because they don't want African migrants or Iraqi refugees coming here, when they vote Leave but then start shouting "We will still get those £600 million in EU grants, won't we?" - those people are stupid. Very, very stupid.

I strongly agree with your post Azzura.

I can understand your incredulity Neil, but that's a bit sweeping!




It isn't correct to say the EU wasn't "done to us" as it was Ted Heath's government that finally took us in after years of de Gaulle saying "Non!"
Neither was the budget slashing blamed on EU migrants; it was clearly in their eyes due to the banking debâcle and Labour under Brown having left nothing in the kitty.
The leaders of the six main EU members, while they're obviously not happy with the result, are showing some decorum as have Cameron and other Remain institutions who are just getting on with it.

DHR, my sense of humour is sometimes considered perhaps a bit dry... nonetheless, Azzura makes my point. During the campaign there was very little if any reference to the UK citizens making themselves at home throughout the various countries of the EU.

I'm seriously worried. I had planned in a few years to retire to Germany; as a Euro citizen I had automatic right of abode there. Now it is likely that I will need to apply for a visa, which might be cancelled at whim. Depending on the deal finally agreed there is a significant probability that my Euro-citizen spouse will not be able to remain in the UK. Unlikely, perhaps... but she is a descendent of a one of three members of her mother's generation who were rounded up and gassed in Dachau and Auschwitz. She is bloody terrified. Please note that I do not ascribe such motives to anyone discussing this here.

Unlikely, perhaps. But today in the supermarket, three separate EU nationals spoke to her and expressed their own doubts and concerns. These were not people who have come in for minimum wage labour; these were people who have lived in, worked in, paid taxes, and enjoyed the UK for decades.

Don't get me wrong. I think there was a lot wrong with the EU; I don't like the thought of a federal Europe. But I also think that you can't change things from outside with a fraction of the facility that you can from inside. And I particularly treasured the right to travel and work and live freely in Europe.

Although quite a commendable, rational and logical statement that realistically is impossible to argue against in a fair and just world, we havent been in a fair and just world (or more correctly Europe)

I would suggest that if the former was the case then over the past forty-odd years their has been ample oppurtunity to get things changed, to get things right.
Did it ?............ , has it ? -...........
No..... The UK has been laughed at and pi$$ed on from day one

And 'better to change things from inside' - Well, this did not happen in the previous four decades and it will not ever happen (if remain had been the majority) over the coming decades and generations.

The 'leave' contingent and the UK has decided their reformed destiny, not based on the campaign and the spin/contraspin devious tactics and lies of both sides and it would be very wrong to suggest that the UK population would decide the long term repair of this decimated Country by knee-jerk decisions made from the scaremongering of the last few weeks.

The majority of the voting population have based decision on the last few decades. The ultra minimal numbers of knee-jerkers dumb enough to believe spin on the day to make their decision are more than likely probably equal on both sides, so the intelligent ratios, and outcome, remain the same.

JonH - how much REAL experience do you have of trying to change things from the inside? I bow to your greater knowledge if it is "lots".

I, at least, have some knowledge and it IS possible - in fact, it's quite critical. You can be sure that when we're outside, the EU will make it as difficult as possible (without compromising their own opportunities) for us to succeed in THEIR market.

So we will be able to make up the rules about selling stuff and services to the English and the Welsh but not to Europe, China, N & S America, S Korea, HK, ANZ, etc etc and maybe not even Scotland or NI. I feel sooooo much more "free" and in "control". Naive doesn't begin to cover it.

Don't bow to my greater knowledge. That really is a silly statement.

I am not saying I am perfect, no-one is perfect ?????.

Experience has shown me that inner change does work for the better.
But first you need an honest forum - if you havent got a faintest chance of getting that then the next move is to step away.
Which is what we are finally doing.

You see, I disagree. Walking away just accepts defeat. It can be changed - I've seen it and worked on it. What's clear now is that I will no longer be able to. And what's worse, if we decide to do something different, we'll have to meet new requirements as well. As a country, we seem to have voted against only 60-odd laws out of 2500-odd. Given that at any one time, about 60% of the country didn't vote for the government in power in this country, and therefore object to much more legislation in this country, I can't see what the difference is. The difference is that many EU laws are minor and many of the UK. laws have far more direct impact.

Ironically, we'll probably end up with many if not most of the EU laws. As well as relatively free migration. I'm sure it was worth it.

Really? That's a massive assumption to make. I wouldn't like to guess either way. I've heard plenty of people say they voted out because they wanted a change, that's all, nothing more, nothing less. Then plenty of in voters said they voted because they're happy and why change. They haven't really though about it, they just thought they better vote.