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Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday #1593422
05/02/2017 12:04
05/02/2017 12:04
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline OP
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Hi All,

Am going to look at a 1997 20v turbo on Wednesday that will potentially be my first coop. smile Have studied the advice on here and also had a few other tips on what to look for which has been of massive benefit to me.

The story goes that there is no rust anywhere and has a genuine 33000 miles with one owner from new and fairly comprehensive service history. It has had loads of work completed including cam belt and other belt change, new brake discs, steering and other work completed. One owner from new and completely original after being in storage for 5 years.

Alarm has been disconnected due to problems and no red key. It seems a bit at the pricey end at just under 10 grand, but there is some wiggle room I think given the above.

Just looking for some opinions and sage advice on the price and whether anyone on here knows the car? don't have the original reg number yet.

http://www.targafloriocars.com/used-car-fiat-coupe-coupe-1550

regards
Ballypete


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593424
05/02/2017 12:15
05/02/2017 12:15
Joined: Jan 2016
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Clintos Offline
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when was cambelt changed, might be due again?

Expansion tank is a bit crusty and the engine bay could do with a bit a tidying up. Id expect an immaculate engine bay for 10 grand though. be sure to check linkages and bushes and smoking turbo. Test drive is essential. Clutch could also be an issue along with handbrake.

Extract from another thread below on a few things to look out for...............

As a general rule - if you are buying a car, any car, for a grand, there's a reason for it.

One reason is that it's old. If it's a Fiat Coupe, it's at least ten and possibly fifteen years old.

Another reason is related to the age: that it's in need of maintenance which may exceed the value of the car.

At ten to fifteen years old, if you do not have a verified history of maintenance, you cannot assume that there is any amount of health in car. If it's a powerful and easily tuned car such as a Coupe, you can also assume that it's been at the very least thrashed, and at worst, modified without any consideration for doing the job properly.

On any car, you will require the following:

•Tax and MOT
•Insurance

These are expensive for a Coupe (group 19 or 20), and if you are young, have poor accident history, and/or live in a deprecated area, will range from silly to ridiculous. It is common for the insurance to exceed the purchase price... These are not optional.

You can expect - at this price point - to need immediate mechanical attention:

•Tyres
•Exhaust
•Wheel bearings
•Suspension parts (shocks, wishbones, track rod ends, drop links etc.)
•Brake discs and pads
•Bodywork

Depending on history, the following. Probably not immediately, but possibly, and within a couple of years almost certainly (unless the documentation suggests it's been very recently done and by a reputable mechanic).

•Auxiliary belts (inspect yearly, change two-yearly)
•Cambelt (change every five years or 50k miles)
•Clutch (may last anything from 50k to 100k, depending on power and driving style)
•Oil coolant pipework (corrodes over about ten years, fails catastrophically and kills the engine in *seconds*, and can only rarely be changed without the associated cooler also requiring change also)
•Radiator (lasts about ten years)
•Turbo (once the bearings die - for example, if used without a catalyst - it will burn oil and produce copious smoke. It will require replacement or reconditioning.)
•Catalyst (many have removed the catalyst in a quest for more power. This is both illegal, so you'll need to replace it, and breaks the turbo unless attention has been paid to the turbo at the same time.)
•Aircon (lots of exciting places for the aircon system, if fitted, to fail; not only the compressor, clutch electrics, and condensor parts, but the in-car bits: ecu and thermal sensors - and of course its drive belts.)

You also need to be aware of previous repairs. If the cambelt has previously broken, the cylinder head will likely have been written off and replaced. No problem with that, but the big end bearings often seem to be damaged at the same time and should ideally be changed as part of the repair.

Something else to consider is the general condition of the engine. You should see at least two bar oil pressure hot on a 20vt engine at idle. If it doesn't hold that pressure, be cautious (16v engines are happy with lower pressure, down to about 1.5 bar, but a good one will still idle hot a 2.5 bar). If the pressure is not at the top of the gauge above 2000 rpm, avoid... places where oil pressure can be lost are worn bearings (crank main and big end, balance shaft, turbo), possibly the piston spray points on 20vt, and of course the oil pump/relief valve. None of these are cheap to fix. Watch for the pressure with the engine off, too - with the ignition on and the engine off, you should see an oil pressure warning light, and an indicate 0 bar pressure. If you don't, there's something wrong with the wiring and/or the sensors. Note that there are two separate sensors for gauge and warning lamp.

Also, remember that the electrics have been out there for a long time. Make sure everything works. There's a maze of wiring and control boxes for things like the windows, central locking, heating etc, and a fuse box which is vulnerable to corrosion in the event that the windscreen has been replaced and badly fitted, as some aftermarket replacements.

When new, the car was fitted with an undertray. Many have removed this, for better access for oil changes, but this may be a false economy; without it, there is no protection for the belts from road detritus... it being fastened on with tie-wraps is not an issue as the captive nuts have died the death, but it should be there. (The 16 and 20 have different undertrays and are not interchangeable).
when was cambelt changed, might be due again?

Expansion tank is a bit crusty and the engine bay could do with a bit a tidying up. Id expect an immaculate engine bay for 10 grand though. be sure to check linkages and bushes and smoking turbo. Test drive is essential. Clutch could also be an issue along with handbrake.

Extract taken from what to look for by Neil......

This is not to say that you cannot get and enjoy a car for fifteen hundred notes. But you will almost certainly have to spend at least as much again to make it work properly and be reliable. Your best bet is to buy from a reputable specialist, or from a forum member with good history. Only buy an eight hundred quid special if you know exactly what you are doing and what your likely expenses might be.

Last edited by Clintos; 05/02/2017 12:17.

Boooooooooost!!!
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Clintos] #1593425
05/02/2017 12:22
05/02/2017 12:22
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline OP
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Thanks Clintos,

I am hoping the long round trip drive is going to be worth it...will look through the docs and receipts thoroughly but told cambelt less that 10K ago and change not due to to old one letting loose!

I was thinking the same about the engine bay smile

Last edited by Ballypete; 05/02/2017 12:43.

Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593430
05/02/2017 12:57
05/02/2017 12:57
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,696
Auld Reekie
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Nice to see competitive prices but 10k is steep.

After digesting all the above sound advice take your check list and tick each item off one by one when you inspect.

Arch seals in boot, front and rear eiffel towers

Aircon working (if fitted)? - not just a "breeze" but icy....

Alarm problem

Oil pressure when hot?

Running temp when hot (thermostat failing?)



The ad states it has 4 cylinders so you can't believe everything rolleyes

Some of this already pointed out by Clintos.


Good luck with the bartering, if you can get it down to a better price it looks really tidy smile


BumbleBee carer smile
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Edinburgh] #1593432
05/02/2017 13:13
05/02/2017 13:13
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline OP
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Thanks Edinburgh, let's hope it is an error re the number of cylinders crazy


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593435
05/02/2017 13:50
05/02/2017 13:50
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szkom Offline
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Look hard over the car at that money. If I read the ad correctly then brakes, cam belt, etc. were done mid last year. The engine bay looks a little cruddy for a car that has just had a cam belt done.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593446
05/02/2017 16:34
05/02/2017 16:34
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 114
Essex
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1st_things_1st Offline
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One problem with cars that have been sat for a few years - anything rubber will have deteriorated most probably.

Tyres must have been changed (or was the car left on stands for all that time). How was it kept - in temp controlled storage?

Drive shaft gaiters, coolant pipes, gaiters for drop links, ball joints, etc. have all these been replaced?

Cars don't like being sat for years. I hope this car has been given a good shake down for many weeks, if not months before sale.

Then all the issues will be ironed out. I have known of friends getting low mileage cars that were not used regularly and lots of things had to be replaced, due to lack of use.

Hope it's a good 'un and good luck.

edit : what I can see from photos :

- front springs rusty.
- Look like new tyres - but the date code is 2413 (week 24 2013)?!
- Look closely at front wheel arch - sign of rusting at sill / wing join. Front wheel closeup picture.
- Interior looks fab.
- As said engine bay a little meh. Nice cleaning in some places (should have done it properly for the money). Some signs of rusting on slam panel and at panel joins.
- Crud in expansion tank (blue gunge at top). Should have been flushed properly. As mentioned already.
- I would really want to see the underside without the undertray. On a car ramp so you can get under it properly.

Last edited by 1st_things_1st; 05/02/2017 16:46.
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593455
05/02/2017 17:21
05/02/2017 17:21

P
patch234
Unregistered
patch234
Unregistered
P



Even if you spend money on that after, you won't regret it. But he is wanting top dollar so use everything to bring the price down. For that cost, if not mint in every way .... bargain.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593498
06/02/2017 08:42
06/02/2017 08:42

G
glenn1960
Unregistered
glenn1960
Unregistered
G



my engine bay's tidier than that after 161,000 miles. Looking at that place, they seem to favour the duster than the de-greaser ....offer them 7 !

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593524
06/02/2017 15:06
06/02/2017 15:06
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 91
West Wales
Zam Offline
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Just as a possible comparison?

This one has done more miles.....but looks nice in the photos.

The engine bay seems to be a little smarter than the Chicester-based one?

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/u...bo-1999/6668977

It is still for sale on their website.....

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Zam] #1593529
06/02/2017 15:51
06/02/2017 15:51
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline OP
Club Member 1578
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Hi Zam,

Thanks for the thought. I made an enquiry about this one a good week ago and was informed it had been sold-perhaps not if it is still on the market...have messaged again... smile


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: 1st_things_1st] #1593530
06/02/2017 15:54
06/02/2017 15:54
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline OP
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Ballypete  Offline OP
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Thanks 1st_things_1st,

Will be taking a full checklist of things to look for with me including all of the extra good advice given here-this forum rocks cool


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Zam] #1593543
06/02/2017 19:02
06/02/2017 19:02
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,696
Auld Reekie
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Originally Posted By Zam
Just as a possible comparison?

This one has done more miles.....but looks nice in the photos.

The engine bay seems to be a little smarter than the Chicester-based one?

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/u...bo-1999/6668977

It is still for sale on their website.....



Advertised as a 5-seater rolleyes


BumbleBee carer smile
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Edinburgh] #1593548
06/02/2017 19:33
06/02/2017 19:33
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 91
West Wales
Zam Offline
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West Wales
Originally Posted By Edinburgh
Originally Posted By Zam
Just as a possible comparison?

This one has done more miles.....but looks nice in the photos.

The engine bay seems to be a little smarter than the Chicester-based one?

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/u...bo-1999/6668977

It is still for sale on their website.....



Advertised as a 5-seater rolleyes


Umm....is that better or worse than a 4 cylinder 20v, as in the OP's linked ad.?

When you are asking £7 - £10k for a car, at least make an effort to get the main details correct!

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593553
06/02/2017 20:54
06/02/2017 20:54
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Staffs
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It would need to be properly mint for 10k! (and its not)
Looks to be a very very nice car but not 10k worth imo.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593884
10/02/2017 10:01
10/02/2017 10:01
Joined: Dec 2005
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Chertsey in the Thames
bockers Offline
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That price is staggering for any 20VT, let alone a early 97 non LE/Plus with no AC even. Tops would be £5k at a stretch. Do you have the reg number? I would pass that through the gov website to check on MOT history before making the trip.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: bockers] #1593888
10/02/2017 10:24
10/02/2017 10:24
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szkom Offline
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Originally Posted By bockers
That price is staggering for any 20VT, let alone a early 97 non LE/Plus with no AC even. Tops would be £5k at a stretch.


Why? If a nice plus can fetch 10k why would 1 cog less halve the price? I just don't get the perceived delta between very similar models. If the car is nice why shouldn't the asking price be be close to the limited/run out models?

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593889
10/02/2017 10:43
10/02/2017 10:43
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Clintos Offline
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lets just say there are better coupes out there for sale (inc Plus & LE's) in better condition (yes, higher mileage I know)for less money...........I rest my case but I wouldn't even waste my time looking at this one. Thought I saw LE0173 for sale on here for less (and pretty much sorted too) : wink

Last edited by Clintos; 10/02/2017 10:45.

Boooooooooost!!!
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Clintos] #1593901
10/02/2017 12:13
10/02/2017 12:13
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szkom Offline
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Originally Posted By Clintos
lets just say there are better coupes out there for sale (inc Plus & LE's) in better condition (yes, higher mileage I know)for less money...........I rest my case but I wouldn't even waste my time looking at this one. Thought I saw LE0173 for sale on here for less (and pretty much sorted too) : wink


A sweeping statement as you haven't viewed the car.

I don't get this rubbishing of prices (especially as you've spent a bit on yours). The car looks quite honest. Ask the right questions as some have pointed out above and you might have a great car to enjoy. And that's the key. These aren't vehicles for investment, but toys for enthusiasts to enjoy.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: szkom] #1593903
10/02/2017 12:18
10/02/2017 12:18
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Clintos Offline
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Originally Posted By szkom
Originally Posted By Clintos
lets just say there are better coupes out there for sale (inc Plus & LE's) in better condition (yes, higher mileage I know)for less money...........I rest my case but I wouldn't even waste my time looking at this one. Thought I saw LE0173 for sale on here for less (and pretty much sorted too) : wink


A sweeping statement as you haven't viewed the car.

I don't get this rubbishing of prices (especially as you've spent a bit on yours). The car looks quite honest. Ask the right questions as some have pointed out above and you might have a great car to enjoy. And that's the key. These aren't vehicles for investment, but toys for enthusiasts to enjoy.


Not a sweeping statement but my opinion........And it wants to be more than quite honest for top dollar!

What I paid for my coupe is less than the asking price of this one. What I spent on it it irrelevant tbh as I bought the car as an enthusiast, not an investor

Last edited by Clintos; 10/02/2017 12:25.

Boooooooooost!!!
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593904
10/02/2017 12:20
10/02/2017 12:20
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Clintos Offline
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Originally Posted By szkom
I'd rather buy an honest car on the cheap and fix it up than spend top dollar only to find faults that need more money.


totally agree with your comment from another post........thought that was the angle I was coming from? confused

Last edited by Clintos; 10/02/2017 12:22.

Boooooooooost!!!
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593922
10/02/2017 14:57
10/02/2017 14:57
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bockers Offline
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I'll agree to differ with you szkom, I think more than 6k is too much for any non restored or mint coupe. Like it or not special edition models always fetch a premium for any car. As for why later cars fetch more, Recaros, 6 speed, and body tarty bits do fetch a premium for some unknown reason wink Me I prefer a the older style 20VT.

The car in the advert looks a long way from mint anyway. Been there a few times with coupes recently, we went on a goose chase to Nottingham to see a mint £5k 20VIS. Looked great in the pics but 20 second once over and i could tell it was rotten to the core. Told owner to take it to specialist, not sure what happened but it is now doing the rounds of auctions at less than £1k. I would like to see the previous MOTs on this and why it has not been used. Lack of red key is an issue when you sell, regardless of it's importance. I'd want to know a lot more before a potentially wasted journey. That is good advice regardless of price.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Clintos] #1593925
10/02/2017 15:23
10/02/2017 15:23
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szkom Offline
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Originally Posted By Clintos
Originally Posted By szkom
I'd rather buy an honest car on the cheap and fix it up than spend top dollar only to find faults that need more money.

thought that was the angle I was coming from? confused


Your first response didn't read that way. You simply rubbished the car. The cars panel work looks spot on as an example. There aren't many cars that look as sharp on the panel gaps these days as most have had resprays. 10K for a sharp looking performance car, if it's sorted, isn't bad. You could get very close to that with a respray, motor rebuild, welding, etc. and you still wouldn't have the low mileage.

The quote out of context you've referenced was from a thread about a £1500 LE for sale. The point being that the car was cheap and represented a disposable way of getting into a coupe, and on the face of it could've made a nice car for someone with time and money.

Last I'll say I've we've differing view points on this car.

My apologies to the OP, I should've started a separate thread on the values of each model. Mods please feel free to delete if I've gone too far off-piste.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: bockers] #1593928
10/02/2017 15:34
10/02/2017 15:34
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Originally Posted By bockers
As for why later cars fetch more, Recaros, 6 speed, and body tarty bits do fetch a premium for some unknown reason wink


Lol, Thank you smile , but you know what I mean - shouldn't be as big a gap as there is.

Maybe we'll be start seeing the main run models appreciate...

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: szkom] #1593932
10/02/2017 15:47
10/02/2017 15:47
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Originally Posted By szkom

Maybe we'll be start seeing the main run models appreciate...


Think we might just be seeing this starting to happen......


BumbleBee carer smile
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593933
10/02/2017 16:09
10/02/2017 16:09
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Eastbourne, Sussex
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I severely doubt that a garage which is selling cars which are valued at touching 200k is going to be selling anything less than as best condition as possible. This is someone's private business where his reputation counts. You don't spend 200k on a used car at a dealer where you don't know anyone who has purchased their before (Unless it's a main dealership) Read the testimonials.

How clean an engine bay appears in a photo is not how you value a car. My every day car is a 2 year old 335d engine bay is disgusting doesn't mean it's not looked after. My fiat engine bay isn't clean either. Doesn't mean it's a dustbin.

I'm sure judging by the photos it's been garaged all it's life by the single owner. Used regularly, otherwise it's condition would be poor and if left outside for 20years paintwork would be beyond saving and in this country covered in rust.

It's a rare car how many of these cars are out there with that low miles and only 1 owner.

From reading their site all cars are fully detailed prior to delivery. I would guess that is fully machine polished, Engine bay etc I would expect just because it's a Fiat that the service you will get will be the same as the Ferraris he is selling. Anything which needs doing will be done no questions asked. Unlike the usual cowboy dealers at the roadside


Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593942
10/02/2017 19:25
10/02/2017 19:25
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West Wales
Zam Offline
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Reaping the fruits

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 91
West Wales
Hopefully, the OP will post soon and give the all the gory details wink

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593949
10/02/2017 20:25
10/02/2017 20:25
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,609
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Gripped Offline
Club member 1924
Gripped  Offline
Club member 1924
Forum is my job

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,609
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Looks honest to me. Nice to see an un-modded engine bay too. Some rust on slam panel is to be expected at this age, which could mean it hasn't been restored at all. If that's the original paint, then it must have been in a garage all this time, which should be good news. Sitting about could also explain the cruddy coolant bottle... Isn't the original Paraflu coolant blue?

However, the rust on the front wheel arch bothers me. Doesn't match the condition of the rest of the car. I'd be checking the rear inner arches and inside the boot. Mind you, the Eifel towers should be a good indicator. If they are mint, then you could be laughing. As above, needs all the usual engine checks too.....

Having said that, it is worth a punt if you're after a keeper............ but I'd be haggling down on condition personally. Gut feeling is it's not a £10k car. I'd want restored condition for that.

Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593955
10/02/2017 23:16
10/02/2017 23:16
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,696
Auld Reekie
Edinburgh Offline
Club President, member225
Edinburgh  Offline
Club President, member225
Forum veteran

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,696
Auld Reekie
Just to put a bit of perspective on this, Duffy's old coop (Moon Grey Plus) went for 8k and you won't see a cleaner restoration - the thread'll be around somewhere to prove it.


BumbleBee carer smile
Re: Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday [Re: Ballypete] #1593994
11/02/2017 15:16
11/02/2017 15:16
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 9
Surrey, UK
Coupedelboy Offline
Newbie
Coupedelboy  Offline
Newbie

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 9
Surrey, UK
I am with Clintos on this one, its a 20 year old car with only one Owner, who were they?

If you like this car and you are taking a long tour down south to see it, I would extend my tour and take a look at this one on eBay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Coupe-20v-turbo-/322408381930?clk_rvr_id=1166603335230&rmvSB=true

Its looks the same, its £6,000 less, done 60,000 miles more( Ok the radio does not work) and its in Ross on Wye. 33 mins from Countrycrusing (Joe Knight's Magic Shop for Fiat Coupes Repairs). At least you have the reg number for this one and can see the MOT history on the Government website.

If I was seriously buying the one down South, I would want an expert report on it at this price and even though I am not an expert, I would want to look all over the car even underneath.

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