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Re: Not declaring mods
#159407
04/08/2006 21:16
04/08/2006 21:16
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Aaah... but if the insurance company completely failed to ask for any other information other than the standard questions, no request to disclose 'any other information', 'material facts', or any other 'tick the box' generic disclaimer that your car is completely standard, then surely you could pull them up on this?
A loophole, surely?
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159408
04/08/2006 21:19
04/08/2006 21:19
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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The Ombudsman has made it clear to insurers that they must ask very clear questions relating to things they consider important to evaluating the risk. Hiding stuff in small print won't work with the Ombudsman even if at the end of the day it might be 'legally' binding. In cases of material non-disclosure the insurance company will have to show that it asked very specific questions relating to things like convictions, accidents, modifications etc - it is one of the main reasons why insurers record telephone conversations when selling policies.
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159409
04/08/2006 21:25
04/08/2006 21:25
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Very unlikely to find a policy that had that. The documents are read carefully by lawyers. Insurance companies are bigger than you and I and their first action would be to refuse your claim, pay the third party and sue you for the settlement. You could involve the Ombudsman, CAB etc but meantime you have no car cover (can't go elswhere without declaring to the new company the problems with the previous one. Having your policy cancelled for any reason is a MAJOR material fact) so you are stuffed...better to be honest.
BTW there is also a little known part of civil law refering to actions in deceit where the court views the conduct and actions of the defendant (you) and would be entitled to take the view that it would have been reasonable of you to declare the mods instead of trying to be smart...
End of law lecture.
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159410
04/08/2006 21:29
04/08/2006 21:29
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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But there always is a specific question relating to vehicle modifications - motor insurers aren't that stupid!
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159411
04/08/2006 21:29
04/08/2006 21:29
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Don't think you're following me - say if you got a quote from the internet, and there was no facility to declare your mods, then how can they say that you were being misleading or deceitful?
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159413
04/08/2006 21:40
04/08/2006 21:40
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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More info from the Financial Ombudsman's website ....
"The insurer must first provide evidence that it asked the customer a clear question when the customer asked to take out or renew a policy. The insurer may ask questions via a traditional proposal form, which records the answers.
In many cases the transaction will have taken place over the telephone. If there is no evidence, such as a call recording and/or a copy of the statement of facts that the insurer has sent the customer, then we will have to decide what is likely to have happened. If the customer gives a credible account of events, we may find it more likely than the insurer’s version.
A similar statement of fact would be required for internet sales; as would some evidence of the questions asked during the website process, as it existed at the time of the application.
In order for non-disclosure to occur, the insurer must show that it asked clear questions."
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159414
04/08/2006 21:47
04/08/2006 21:47
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Look, if you guys are really hung up on this then go and spend ££ with an insurance lawyer. Also the Ombudsman is not superman. If the matter goes to Court its the Court who decide as in your examples the case would rest on contract law..
This is becoming a Moon is Green Cheese exercise. The insurance companies do ask questions, do record the answers and if you try and pull a fast one (excuse the pun) then you have a very good chance of ending up with no cover or in the worst case a starring role as an uninsured driver in a fraud case...
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159415
04/08/2006 22:20
04/08/2006 22:20
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
This is becoming a Moon is Green Cheese exercise.
Everyone knows the moon's made of blue cheese, silly!
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159417
05/08/2006 00:37
05/08/2006 00:37
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
A mate of mine wrote off his modified sapphire cossie and when the assessor came round he measured the lift on the cams.
holy sheet ...
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159418
06/08/2006 04:29
06/08/2006 04:29
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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if you did have mods and needed to claim for an accident, and had basic mods induction kit zorst etc. what would stop you putting standard parts back on, if accident damage was not too bad it would be a half hour job and no one would know! my dad had an accident and an accesor came to inspect the car he gave a date and time, which gave plenty of time to put everything back to normal.
Last edited by savster; 06/08/2006 04:31.
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159419
06/08/2006 06:05
06/08/2006 06:05
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Depends if there was a third party involved. I suspect the boys in blue would become involved if you were found out..tampering/destroying evidence, that sort of thing. Serious stuff if somebody was hurt and would automatically make the accident your fault even if it wasn't. Even if it was you v a tree I'd still think it would be devious, dishonest and fradulent.
Wouldn't go there myself.
Last edited by Skodaman; 06/08/2006 18:03.
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159420
06/08/2006 17:04
06/08/2006 17:04
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I guess the other problem is that you might not be in a position to reverse your mods if you're badly injured! On another note, my current insurers have never asked me about mods ... it's not on their form! Pity I don't have any ... although hold on ... Forge DV006, Mintex fast road pads, New CD Head Unit, Goodyears not Pirellis!
Last edited by davidub; 06/08/2006 17:05.
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159421
07/08/2006 03:16
07/08/2006 03:16
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
my dad had an accident and an accesor came to inspect the car he gave a date and time, which gave plenty of time to put everything back to normal.
I bet it looked quite funny with Cat A damage to the front end but with a pristine bumper slapped back on with duct tape
"No, honest - it's the one which came with the car..."
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159422
08/08/2006 19:57
08/08/2006 19:57
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Pity I don't have any ... although hold on ... Forge DV006, Mintex fast road pads, New CD Head Unit, Goodyears not Pirellis!
Unfortunately, insurance companies do regard replacing the plastic Bosch dump-valve with a Forge equivalent as a modification - indeed some will refuse to insure you with one fitted
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159424
10/08/2006 17:23
10/08/2006 17:23
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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at the risk of sounding legalese , contracts of insurance have from time immemorial , been deemed contracts uberimae fides.
ie , contract of utmost good faith.
the reason being that the insurer's quote hinges upon you declaring everything upon good faith. Not , for eg , upon them asking you the correct questions.
cheers. .
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159425
10/08/2006 20:09
10/08/2006 20:09
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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If you answer all questions to the best of your knowledge and belief you will be fine.
If you genuinely didn't realise the car had a mod and they call you up on it then you'll be justified in disputing any decision to decline cover. If you are prepared to press it they will probably back down. Obviously, if you didn't realise the car was modded when it has aftermarket alloys, exhaust, FMIC etc etc then it may be hard to persuade people you didn't realise.
If you tell a porky then you may be able to get away with it by pleading ignorance but is it really worth it??? You'll be suprised how they find out things. For example, by looking at the posts people make on the forum... If they can really be bothered they may be able to find out people's real identity by obtaining an order for 3rd party disclosure from the club or whoever hosts the forum.....
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159428
10/08/2006 21:25
10/08/2006 21:25
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
A mate of mine wrote off his modified sapphire cossie and when the assessor came round he measured the lift on the cams.
Things have changed in the many years since I organised the motor claims assessors for a large insurance co. Back then they only knew bodywork (remember their main job is to check the repairing bodyshop isn't ripping 'em off). I remember a claim for a 1.6 sierra or something which had a Cosworth bodykit (or a crap looking version of one). They honestly couldn't tell whether it also had a Cosworth engine sneaked in under the bonnet too
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159429
11/08/2006 19:35
11/08/2006 19:35
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I think this all depends upon the company that you are insured with. It seems that the smaller companies are much more fastidious in their inspections (I think that measuring the lift on the cams is the most extreme example I have come across) as they have the most to lose by paying out for larger claims. The larger companies (take for example a certain eastern county city based provider), are far less stringent in their assessing of the vehicle, in favour of maintaining their reputation of having a 'niggle-free' claims process. The outsourcing of the claims dept has meant that the claims process however has become 'nigglesome' in other ways, which also lends to the company wanting a quick resolution of the claim. Don't misinterpret this as my endorsement of going with the larger companies because, in my opinion they are more likely to be ignorant of undeclared modifications. This is not the case. I am sure that were someone to launch themselves from a speed bump and plough through the lunchtime queue in McDonalds (no great loss, I hear you cry) there would no doubt be a lengthy investigation which would involve a thorough dissection of the ill-fated car, with checks for after-market chips and measurement of cam-lift de rigeur. (Apologies for the w@nky turn of phrase) The whole thread came from my experience when shopping around for my motor renewal. I was quoted via MoneySuperMarket, and then completed further questions for Bedford via Highway Insurance. Having written policy booklets myself, I was surprised when at no point during the quote process was I asked whether I had any modifications fitted to the vehicle, or asked to tick a box or agree to a disclaimer stating that my car was standard and unmodified in any way. It was only when I received my policy documentation through the post that I read in the wording that it was agreed that my car was unmodified. I was wondering where this left me from an insurance point of view, and if I then had the right when calling to declare my modifications to state that I hadn't initially been asked, nor had the facility to disclose such information whether the vehicle was modified, and therefore should not be subject to a loading because of this. However, following a revisit to the quote process from MoneySuperMarket, it appears that in pressing the 'proceed' button to accept the quote, I was also agreeing to their Terms and Conditions. A little root through these, and there it was. I shall draw my breathy post and my at times controversial thread to a close then. A textbook exercise in futility, I'm sure you will agree.
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159431
11/08/2006 22:58
11/08/2006 22:58
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I was just kidding Andrew, I have appreciated your thoughts!
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159432
12/08/2006 01:08
12/08/2006 01:08
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,033 I WANT F40
S1MMA
Competition Level
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Competition Level
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,033
I WANT F40
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Quote:
The larger companies (take for example a certain eastern county city based provider), are far less stringent in their assessing of the vehicle, in favour of maintaining their reputation of having a 'niggle-free' claims process. The outsourcing of the claims dept has meant that the claims process however has become 'nigglesome' in other ways, which also lends to the company wanting a quick resolution of the claim.
Not sure if I agree with this. As a London market Commercial Underwriter, I'm not a complete expert on Motor (or any personal lines), although the company I work for is the market leader (highest market share) in my specialist market, and we are probably also the most anal when it comes to disclosure. We are also the most selective when choosing risks, so I think it's more to do with whoever is underwriting the risk, and in the event of a claim, who is dealing with the claim (can come down to an individual or a company policy).
You may not get the same treatment even with 2 similar claims when insured with the same company, so you're taking a risk if you don't disclose. I was involved with an accident with a marked police car 3 years ago, and the coppers told me to drive home (at 1am) with only 1 light on my car working. No checks of my car (got breathalised), insurance co didnt check my car, just got it repaired and off I went. On that note, you could have a minor accident hitting a fence, and the insurance co could go to town checking your car, you just don't know.
Sideways a LOT
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Re: Not declaring mods *DELETED*
#159433
13/08/2006 18:16
13/08/2006 18:16
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159434
13/08/2006 19:27
13/08/2006 19:27
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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My experiences...... I crashed a lightly modified Coupe in May 2002 and wrote it off. It had plus wheels, Zender bodykit, SuperSprint exhaust, K&N panel, strut brace, replacement turbo. All had been declared, and I was paying about £150 extra for the mods. When the insurance company inspector came to view the car, he didn't look at the mods - he went straight to the tyres and brakes to see if I'd been driving a defective car. Clearly, he was looking for a way to refuse the claim. their first offer was £3250. They ended up paying me £6000 My current experience of mods is far better. I called Liverpool Victoria after they mailshotted me at renewal time. I told them I was heaviliy modded, and they asked me for an exhaustive list. GT28R turbo Chip intercooler chargecooler air filter boost controller Exhaust dump valve strut brace 17" wheels lowered springs uprated shocks uprated brakes and a few more things I can't remember off the top of my head Total extra charge? Zero Nothing Nada Zip Apparently, drivers of "more mature years" who tend to modify their cars will do so properly and not cut any corners. Their claims experience suggests that true car enthusiasts have a far better claims record than "ordinary" drivers, so they don't load at all. what a result!
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Re: Not declaring mods *DELETED* *DELETED*
#159435
13/08/2006 20:38
13/08/2006 20:38
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Re: Not declaring mods
#159436
14/08/2006 06:53
14/08/2006 06:53
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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that definately seems a lot more sensible , modifications are not covered after an accident so only a theft risk and an accident risk should be taken into account . obviously insurance companies are trying to make profit and most usually do but its high time they looked upon modifications sensibly .
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