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Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 #1631488
05/04/2019 21:39
05/04/2019 21:39
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,174
Hemel in the Hempstead
barnacle Offline OP
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Apparently, the deaths were caused by:

Originally Posted by BBC
An "inadequate" IRA warning call caused or contributed to the deaths of 21 people in the 1974 Birmingham pub bombings, a jury has found.


In my innocence I had thought it was because some neanderthal IRA murderer had planted a bomb.


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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631497
06/04/2019 08:28
06/04/2019 08:28
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magooagain Offline
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Yes,but I thought it was also declared yesterday that the poor 21 people were murdered.



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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631501
06/04/2019 13:56
06/04/2019 13:56
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Hemel in the Hempstead
barnacle Offline OP
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Indeed they were.

But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.

This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.

I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves.


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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631502
06/04/2019 14:19
06/04/2019 14:19
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 45
Behind a blue gate
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Originally Posted by barnacle
Indeed they were.

But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.

This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.

I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves.


I don't disagree with anything you have written there. I do have a question however; do you consider state sanctioned terrorism the same? Personally I do and don't consider for one minute that the UK behaved any better, their actions just never made the headlines in the same way. There is a lot of murky history to the troubles, UK "state security apparatus" and the ruling classes have a lot to answer for too.

Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631504
06/04/2019 15:02
06/04/2019 15:02
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,257
Kent
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I thought that the UK SIS, UK Army Intelligence, RUC SB and the UDR under UK political authority and guidance were orchestrating and colluding with many of the actions and factions of PIRA, UDA, UVF et al by the 1970's onwards.

Last edited by Submariner; 06/04/2019 15:31.
Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631505
06/04/2019 16:29
06/04/2019 16:29
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 45
Behind a blue gate
clanger Offline
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They (UK political establishment) were playing both sides all the way back to the first world war.

Last edited by clanger; 06/04/2019 16:30.
Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631506
06/04/2019 18:15
06/04/2019 18:15
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,605
In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Originally Posted by barnacle
Indeed they were.

But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.

This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.

I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves.





As above you're not wrong.
But it's a historical conflict where many factions think more than one other factions are wrong. Rightly or wrongly the British have got involved in Ireland and it's not forgotten by certain groups.
It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland.



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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: magooagain] #1631509
06/04/2019 20:16
06/04/2019 20:16
Joined: Dec 2005
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State of Essex .
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"It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland." Could you explain this comment


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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: robcoupe20vt] #1631511
06/04/2019 21:17
06/04/2019 21:17
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,605
In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Originally Posted by robcoupe20vt
"It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland." Could you explain this comment





The arguement is that British troops were minding the UKs assets etc in the name of keeping the peace.



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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631515
06/04/2019 22:27
06/04/2019 22:27
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,692
Auld Reekie
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Well Neil, both you and I will agree that "religion" has a lot to answer for in many instances, Ireland being a strong case in point.

Dem pesky interferences.....


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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: magooagain] #1631518
06/04/2019 23:19
06/04/2019 23:19
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 688
State of Essex .
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robcoupe20vt Offline
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State of Essex .
Originally Posted by magooagain
Originally Posted by robcoupe20vt
"It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland." Could you explain this comment





The arguement is that British troops were minding the UKs assets etc in the name of keeping the peace.

Ok are you talking about British troops circa 1969 ??


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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631522
07/04/2019 10:21
07/04/2019 10:21
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,174
Hemel in the Hempstead
barnacle Offline OP
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It is not my intention to get into the rights and wrongs over who did what to whom over the last century.

My point is *entirely* that it is never acceptable to try and present a political point of view with murder. "Now look what you made me do" is just trying to shift the blame for the action. The reasons behind the actions are different and from at least one viewpoint are acceptable, but the actions themselves are not those of civilised people.

This applies equally whether the murderer is homegrown or not; governmental or not.


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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: clanger] #1631550
08/04/2019 15:56
08/04/2019 15:56
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 537
Freedom
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Originally Posted by clanger
Originally Posted by barnacle
Indeed they were.

But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.

This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.

I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves.


I don't disagree with anything you have written there. I do have a question however; do you consider state sanctioned terrorism the same? Personally I do and don't consider for one minute that the UK behaved any better, their actions just never made the headlines in the same way. There is a lot of murky history to the troubles, UK "state security apparatus" and the ruling classes have a lot to answer for too.



Yes Clanger.

Much like the French have directly sanctioned mass military actions leading to many many deaths (hundreds) in Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Mali and a lot of other part of its old empire over there "troubles". That's before you start looking into the military attack on the Greenpeace ship "Rainbow Warrior" (2 I believe). And countless other shootings in more recent anti-Jihadi raids inside and outside of France. And bombing and raids in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq...etc etc. That did not work out too well for the western world....

Your point isn't lost on me. BUT...

I suspect - at a time when people around the world are monitored, listened too, and shadowed on line and off, with cameras in the streets and roads, and national intelligence gathering agencies knowing who you are and how you dress - you won't find any Country that does not sponsor a very large, targeted, relentless military action- by its ruling classes against any group it wants done away with. People tend to agree with this - as they NEVER vote to bring down governments that do it at election time. It's unconvenient to say that - but that's how it is. People turn a blind eye to what's done in the name of their country.

France, like the UK - used to rule a large part of the globe. And it's history of strong military response to uprisings/terrorism/people they say are a threat to them is just as big as the UK Maybe there are even more events we the public are not even aware of yet...

It's hard to tell who are the "good guys" and who are the "bad guys" when they are both shooting people.

MM

Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974 [Re: barnacle] #1631943
24/04/2019 19:29
24/04/2019 19:29
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,257
Kent
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Good article from the Irish Times about Op Kenova and the apparent investigation into the collusion and killings by MI5 IRA Loyalists and British Military Intelligence (FRU)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...-of-spying-during-the-troubles-1.3043818


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