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Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
#1631488
05/04/2019 20:39
05/04/2019 20:39
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,704 Berlin
barnacle
OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,704
Berlin
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Apparently, the deaths were caused by: An "inadequate" IRA warning call caused or contributed to the deaths of 21 people in the 1974 Birmingham pub bombings, a jury has found. In my innocence I had thought it was because some neanderthal IRA murderer had planted a bomb.
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: barnacle]
#1631497
06/04/2019 07:28
06/04/2019 07:28
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,793 In the coupe.
magooagain
Club Member 259
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Club Member 259
Forum is my life
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,793
In the coupe.
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Yes,but I thought it was also declared yesterday that the poor 21 people were murdered.
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: barnacle]
#1631501
06/04/2019 12:56
06/04/2019 12:56
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,704 Berlin
barnacle
OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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OP
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,704
Berlin
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Indeed they were.
But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.
This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.
I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves.
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: barnacle]
#1631502
06/04/2019 13:19
06/04/2019 13:19
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 327 Free State of Jones
clanger
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 327
Free State of Jones
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Indeed they were.
But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.
This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.
I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves. I don't disagree with anything you have written there. I do have a question however; do you consider state sanctioned terrorism the same? Personally I do and don't consider for one minute that the UK behaved any better, their actions just never made the headlines in the same way. There is a lot of murky history to the troubles, UK "state security apparatus" and the ruling classes have a lot to answer for too.
E85
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: barnacle]
#1631504
06/04/2019 14:02
06/04/2019 14:02
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,468 Kent
Submariner
My job on the forum
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My job on the forum
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,468
Kent
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I thought that the UK SIS, UK Army Intelligence, RUC SB and the UDR under UK political authority and guidance were orchestrating and colluding with many of the actions and factions of PIRA, UDA, UVF et al by the 1970's onwards.
Last edited by Submariner; 06/04/2019 14:31.
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: barnacle]
#1631505
06/04/2019 15:29
06/04/2019 15:29
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 327 Free State of Jones
clanger
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 327
Free State of Jones
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They (UK political establishment) were playing both sides all the way back to the first world war.
Last edited by clanger; 06/04/2019 15:30.
E85
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: barnacle]
#1631506
06/04/2019 17:15
06/04/2019 17:15
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,793 In the coupe.
magooagain
Club Member 259
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Club Member 259
Forum is my life
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,793
In the coupe.
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Indeed they were.
But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.
This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.
I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves. As above you're not wrong. But it's a historical conflict where many factions think more than one other factions are wrong. Rightly or wrongly the British have got involved in Ireland and it's not forgotten by certain groups. It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland.
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: magooagain]
#1631509
06/04/2019 19:16
06/04/2019 19:16
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 777 State of Essex .
robcoupe20vt
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 777
State of Essex .
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"It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland." Could you explain this comment
Fiat 20VT Fiat 16vt Fiat 130TC Fiat 131 sport Kawasaki ZX6RP7F Kawasaki GPZ550 Kawasaki ZX7R P2
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: robcoupe20vt]
#1631511
06/04/2019 20:17
06/04/2019 20:17
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,793 In the coupe.
magooagain
Club Member 259
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Club Member 259
Forum is my life
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,793
In the coupe.
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"It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland." Could you explain this comment The arguement is that British troops were minding the UKs assets etc in the name of keeping the peace.
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: magooagain]
#1631518
06/04/2019 22:19
06/04/2019 22:19
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 777 State of Essex .
robcoupe20vt
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 777
State of Essex .
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"It could be argued British involvement was a nessesary thing,but not from many in Ireland." Could you explain this comment The arguement is that British troops were minding the UKs assets etc in the name of keeping the peace. Ok are you talking about British troops circa 1969 ??
Fiat 20VT Fiat 16vt Fiat 130TC Fiat 131 sport Kawasaki ZX6RP7F Kawasaki GPZ550 Kawasaki ZX7R P2
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Re: Birmingham pub bombing, 1974
[Re: clanger]
#1631550
08/04/2019 14:56
08/04/2019 14:56
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,012 Behind Enemy Lines
Master_Mariner
Club member 583
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Club member 583
Enjoying the ride
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,012
Behind Enemy Lines
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Indeed they were.
But the legal conceit that their deaths were caused or contributed to by an inadequate warning gets me thoroughly wound up... the cause of their deaths was that someone felt that planting bombs was a valid political protest; that the bomb planters, or the organisation behind them, may have felt that supplying a warning would prevent death or injury is iniquitous and ingenuous at best.
This coroner's comment effectively legitimises that behaviour. It was OK that you placed the explosive; the fault was that your warning was insufficient.
I don't hold any brief for terrorism in any flavour. I have argued strongly in the past that there should be no such class of person as 'terrorist' and that they should be charged with the crimes they commit: murder, conspiracy thereto, discharge of firearms, assault with a deadly weapon and all the rest. Legitimising a class of criminal helps, I feel, no-one... except the criminals themselves. I don't disagree with anything you have written there. I do have a question however; do you consider state sanctioned terrorism the same? Personally I do and don't consider for one minute that the UK behaved any better, their actions just never made the headlines in the same way. There is a lot of murky history to the troubles, UK "state security apparatus" and the ruling classes have a lot to answer for too. Yes Clanger. Much like the French have directly sanctioned mass military actions leading to many many deaths (hundreds) in Chad, Niger, Mauritania, Burkina Faso, Mali and a lot of other part of its old empire over there "troubles". That's before you start looking into the military attack on the Greenpeace ship "Rainbow Warrior" (2 I believe). And countless other shootings in more recent anti-Jihadi raids inside and outside of France. And bombing and raids in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq...etc etc. That did not work out too well for the western world.... Your point isn't lost on me. BUT... I suspect - at a time when people around the world are monitored, listened too, and shadowed on line and off, with cameras in the streets and roads, and national intelligence gathering agencies knowing who you are and how you dress - you won't find any Country that does not sponsor a very large, targeted, relentless military action- by its ruling classes against any group it wants done away with. People tend to agree with this - as they NEVER vote to bring down governments that do it at election time. It's unconvenient to say that - but that's how it is. People turn a blind eye to what's done in the name of their country. France, like the UK - used to rule a large part of the globe. And it's history of strong military response to uprisings/terrorism/people they say are a threat to them is just as big as the UK Maybe there are even more events we the public are not even aware of yet... It's hard to tell who are the "good guys" and who are the "bad guys" when they are both shooting people. MM
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