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Going electric #1637124
28/11/2019 11:22
28/11/2019 11:22
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,132
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Gripped Offline OP
I need some sleep
Gripped  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,132
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Is anyone else starting to get tempted by the 2p per mile virtuous green transport?

A few neighbours have plug in hybrids (approx 25mile range) and there's a full electric Zoe and a leaf with ranges of up to 120 miles. New versions have better range.. And fast charge of only 30 mins.

Tempting. Certainly for commuting.


[Linked Image]
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637126
28/11/2019 12:30
28/11/2019 12:30
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,505
J
JKD Offline
Forum is my job
JKD  Offline
Forum is my job
J

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,505
If the mile range is ok for you, and the charging time is manageable, and you don't mind that (apart from some examples like a Tesla Model S/Model 3) most electric cars are as aesthetically pleasing as a microwave, then I really see no problem with getting an electric car.

Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637128
28/11/2019 12:38
28/11/2019 12:38
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 86
Troon, South Ayrshire
Alan_K Offline
Club member 1599
Alan_K  Offline
Club member 1599
Reaping the fruits

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 86
Troon, South Ayrshire
The problem with electric cars are your paying
Say £10,000 odd over the odds of a normal petrol car
Of same sort of size so will take a lot of years to recoup that outlay
Plus Like with all battery’s they will eventually not charge 100%
The Zoe says after 8 years it will be down to 66% battery range so down to about 80 miles instead of 120
And that’s if they figures actually pan out

Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637129
28/11/2019 13:50
28/11/2019 13:50
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 833
Germany
neil_r Offline
Enjoying the ride
neil_r  Offline
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 833
Germany
Another report (German) based on German electricity production mix, calculated that the lifetime CO2 cost of an electric vehicle needed 220k km to break even and their projected life was a maximum of 180k km. So a pain to live with and not actually good for the environment. Moving the fossil fuel CO2 generation from cars to power stations isn't the answer. There has to be a real reduction for it to be successful.


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637132
28/11/2019 17:29
28/11/2019 17:29
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,132
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Gripped Offline OP
I need some sleep
Gripped  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,132
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
All good points there. Cost is an issue, but they will get cheaper as they become more mainstream.

I think things are moving in the right direction regarding energy generation though. This year, the UK had its first period where more than half the power generated was from renewables. Coal is also being phased out quickly.

The other (and probably bigger issue) is the effect of traffic on local air quality. So a shift to zero (local) emissions is a good step forward.

Ps on looks. I agree they haven't exactly gone to town on jaw dropping design. But the new Leaf looks OK.

Pps. It's academic anyway cos I ain't got the cash.

Last edited by Gripped; 28/11/2019 18:51.

[Linked Image]
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637137
28/11/2019 21:08
28/11/2019 21:08
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 3
Broadstairs, Kent
R
Ronski Offline
Newbie
Ronski  Offline
Newbie
R

Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 3
Broadstairs, Kent
Funnily enough I was chatting to a colleague about electric cars the other day, cheapest one was about £6k, but doors were an optional extra at £543 (yes really), range was ridiculous and you had to pay a monthly fee for the lease on the batteries. Once you got to a decent car they were just silly money £30k for an electric Corsa. Batteries they reckon will last 10 to 15 years, and most have an 8 year warranty so apparently no need to worry about their longevity! In 2016 a 40Kwh battery pack cost £10K !!!! An awful lot of people I know run cars older than 8 years (mines 10, the wife's is 12), how many people running cars that old could afford to replace the battery pack.

They say batteries will get cheaper, I'm not so sure, demand for lithium is increasing, and its pretty hard to come by, so surely prices will go up as demands sore https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/availability_of_lithium

A friend told me recently he was at a motorway service station parked opposite the Tesla charging stations, there was a constant queue of people waiting to charge there cars, some quite annoyed at the lengthy wait.

I think perhaps if you have money to spare and don't need to travel far, then they are good, but not for long trips or if you plan to keep it long term.

Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637139
28/11/2019 21:36
28/11/2019 21:36
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 41
Ely
Smatt Offline
Club Member 1773
Smatt  Offline
Club Member 1773
Discoverer

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 41
Ely
I would absolutely love an EV!!

However, I enjoy driving...
-I either want to drive something very refined & pleasant inside, or something with character.
The only EVs that have either of these are unaffordable. Not many have both.

I did just sit inside a Hyundai kona, just to see(!), but I hated it ( I have driven mainly mercs for last 15 yrs ooo).

To do a good ev retrofit on a budget costs £10-30k atm, so it tends to be only enthusiasts that go that route.

A US company recently started marketing a electric 'drop in' replacement for a V8 in a neat unit (all bar batteries) for $60k shocked

Yes, it does move the pollution upstream to the power station, but this is more efficient. Plus, I just love the convenience of not having to go to the petrol station!
General running costs are much less too. For example, regenerative braking means that traditional brakes are used less & need less frequent replacing.
I do believe battery prices will come down more- they already have- and that retrofits will become more commonplace & easier

The main thing that a good EV lacks is the auditory feedback!

Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637146
29/11/2019 10:00
29/11/2019 10:00
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,132
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Gripped Offline OP
I need some sleep
Gripped  Offline OP
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,132
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Yep, there are definitely issues but I think in as little as 5 years we'll see a step change. Manufacturers are really starting to shift to hybrid or EV already.

I think the lack of charging stations is just temporary while the infrastructure catches up with demand.

As with any major shift, there could be big problems with demand vs supply (e.g. Lithium) and we'll probably see major players like China taking the lead. Although they are heavily reliant on coal for power, they are also investing massively in renewables.

As for cost, this will almost certainly come down. Think of solar panels which cost a fraction of they did 20 years ago.

But it does concern me that it isn't fixing the overall problem of finite resources. We all still expect to have our own cars and as developing countries want the same, pressures increase and you get knock on effects like deforestation and increased carbon emissions.

Right. I'm off to buy an electric scooter.
laugh


[Linked Image]
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637186
30/11/2019 17:21
30/11/2019 17:21
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 41
Ely
Smatt Offline
Club Member 1773
Smatt  Offline
Club Member 1773
Discoverer

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 41
Ely
On topic but on a slight tangent...

Radio control 'toy' cars have come such a long way since i was a boy!
Even just 10 yrs ago, it had to be nitro for a decent fast car, but now electric rc cars are faster with great run times & none of the mess & associated hassle & constant tuning!


Btw, I read recently that there are already more ev charging points in England than petrol stations.....

Re: Going electric [Re: Smatt] #1637188
30/11/2019 19:18
30/11/2019 19:18
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,791
Haslemere, Surrey
M
Mark_S Offline
Forum is my job
Mark_S  Offline
Forum is my job
M

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,791
Haslemere, Surrey
In my opinion the big issue that everybody has missed is that the government cannot just lose the excise and VAT tax revenue on petrol and diesel; they will have to try and tax electricity going into vehicles, but how to do this without sticking up the domestic electricity tariff and applying VAT, a certain vote loser? You can make charging away from home (roadside) as expensive as you want, but how to claw back the cash from home charging, now that is a technological problem without a fix that I can see. I may be missing something, but go figure....

Last edited by Mark_S; 30/11/2019 19:20.

997 C4S
Re: Going electric [Re: Mark_S] #1637189
30/11/2019 20:27
30/11/2019 20:27
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 101
Behind a blue gate
clanger Offline
On a journey
clanger  Offline
On a journey

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 101
Behind a blue gate
Originally Posted by Mark_S
In my opinion the big issue that everybody has missed is that the government cannot just lose the excise and VAT tax revenue on petrol and diesel; they will have to try and tax electricity going into vehicles, but how to do this without sticking up the domestic electricity tariff and applying VAT, a certain vote loser? You can make charging away from home (roadside) as expensive as you want, but how to claw back the cash from home charging, now that is a technological problem without a fix that I can see. I may be missing something, but go figure....


Smart meters

"but then we all knew that"

Last edited by clanger; 30/11/2019 20:32.
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637194
30/11/2019 20:49
30/11/2019 20:49
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 380
uk
OnlyItalian Offline
Making a profit
OnlyItalian  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 380
uk
LPG still the better option IMO unless you do a lot of mileage which would be a problem anyway with the current electric car ranges. I do roughly 10k a year and spend less on LPG in a month than the cost of an electric car battery lease!


"Proud owner of LE141 and a 99 VIS broomie "
Re: Going electric [Re: OnlyItalian] #1637205
01/12/2019 14:27
01/12/2019 14:27
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,633
In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
Club Member 259
magooagain  Offline
Club Member 259
Forum is my life

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,633
In the coupe.
Originally Posted by OnlyItalian
LPG still the better option IMO unless you do a lot of mileage which would be a problem anyway with the current electric car ranges. I do roughly 10k a year and spend less on LPG in a month than the cost of an electric car battery lease!




I was thinking about LPG some years ago when I had the chance to buy a very nice V8 Range Rover but my nearest LPG garage was over 20 miles away and it would mean a special trip for a gas top up. Nowhere near economical.



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Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637221
02/12/2019 11:28
02/12/2019 11:28
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 380
uk
OnlyItalian Offline
Making a profit
OnlyItalian  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 380
uk
Yeah, that can be a problem. I visited a station with an LPG sign up, couldn't see the pump and when I asked the attendant he said, "We don't sell it anymore because no-one buys it."

I do have to go a little out of my way sometimes but it still feels worth it once I've filled up and paid half as much for it. Always top up if there's LPG on my way somewhere.

But 20 miles would make it impractical. I've got at least 3 vendors within 20 miles.


"Proud owner of LE141 and a 99 VIS broomie "
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637223
02/12/2019 11:36
02/12/2019 11:36
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,633
In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
Club Member 259
magooagain  Offline
Club Member 259
Forum is my life

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,633
In the coupe.
A pal of mine had a bit of kit that he could transfer bottled LPG into his tank on his car. I think it involved having the bottle suspended up in the air and a pair of valves and pipe etc linked between bottle and tank. It worked well for him and he had bulk delivery of the bottles.



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Re: Going electric [Re: magooagain] #1637273
03/12/2019 07:03
03/12/2019 07:03
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,620
Brisbane, Australia
Possum Offline
My life on the forum
Possum  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,620
Brisbane, Australia
I think that transferring bottled gas into the vehicle would also require the bottle to be inverted so that liquid gas was transferred. The outlet on "normal" bottles draws gas from the top whereas the large bottles used to refill your BBQ bottle draws liquid gas from the bottom of the cylinder.

A late mate of mine used to transfer (refill) from larger bottles to smaller ones for camping etc and would always invert them for this reason. .


Re: Going electric [Re: magooagain] #1637279
03/12/2019 09:52
03/12/2019 09:52
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 86
Tasmania
G
Grigio Offline
Club member 1604
Grigio  Offline
Club member 1604
Reaping the fruits
G

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 86
Tasmania
Originally Posted by magooagain
A pal of mine had a bit of kit that he could transfer bottled LPG into his tank on his car.


At 60 deg F the pressure in an LPG cylinder is over 90psi, any hoses and fittings have to handle significant pressures.


2000 grigio moon 20VT Plus.
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637395
06/12/2019 22:42
06/12/2019 22:42
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 86
Tasmania
G
Grigio Offline
Club member 1604
Grigio  Offline
Club member 1604
Reaping the fruits
G

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 86
Tasmania
They're coming thick and fast, within 10 years ICE commuter vehicles will be the minority of new sales.

https://thedriven.io/


2000 grigio moon 20VT Plus.
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637417
08/12/2019 13:51
08/12/2019 13:51
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,486
Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
paul Offline
My job on the forum
paul  Offline
My job on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,486
Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
I have had a Tesla model s for over 18 months..so had plenty of time to get used to it....main reason I bought it ? (apart from being green, but that wasn't the main reason).
the governments tax breaks ,I 'm very fortunate , I run my own company ,so its totally tax deductible ...so purely money. ( Scottish Gov also give you a £30k interest free 6 year loan-to help pay for the bloody thing as well )
would I have bought it if the tax breaks where not available ...No !!


its a great car, very very rapid ,totally flat torque curve, instant response , silent, great on the motorway ,supremely comfortable , fantastic tech , I can go on and on
charging in Scotland is free and mine came with Free supercharging ,so no costs ( I was over £300 per month on diesel before) and also have a Gov. charging station 200 yards from my work base.

so plenty of pluses .

BUT

It is a pain to have to think about charging especially on any journey over say 150-200 mls ,so you have to plan stops etc
you get no where near the range they say you should , mines is quoted as having a range at 230 miles ...most I get ever ---170 !! BUT on a warm dry sunny day.

In the winter with temps below 5-6 deg ? take at least 35% off that !! and if its short journeys ,well, it takes approx 10-12 mls to fully warm the batteries and motors up , so you use double the range for that distance. and they all tell you not to fully charge
them all the time, up to 90% charge only as recommended by all the ev makers , or you lose battery capacity !!

when mines was brand new when charged fully it showed 232 miles ,now after 18 months thats 225 -227 so lost about 5 miles , it seems too have stabilised around that ,but to get the last 15-20 miles of charge in takes around 30-40 mins longer ,so not worth waiting

So unless there is massive improvements in batteries / charging times etc , It would never be my only car in the household ,unless there is a MASSIVE programme in charging infrastructure ,which cannot appear overnight.

I'm guessing it's not the final answer ,hydrogen cell , or surely some sort of eco friendly bio fuel must be on the horizon ?

anyway only my opinion of owning a EV


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: Going electric [Re: paul] #1637422
08/12/2019 17:39
08/12/2019 17:39
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,283
Maidenhead
elder81 Offline
Competition Level
elder81  Offline
Competition Level

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,283
Maidenhead
Originally Posted by paul
I have had a Tesla model s for over 18 months..so had plenty of time to get used to it....main reason I bought it ? (apart from being green, but that wasn't the main reason).
the governments tax breaks ,I 'm very fortunate , I run my own company ,so its totally tax deductible ...so purely money. ( Scottish Gov also give you a £30k interest free 6 year loan-to help pay for the bloody thing as well )
would I have bought it if the tax breaks where not available ...No !!


its a great car, very very rapid ,totally flat torque curve, instant response , silent, great on the motorway ,supremely comfortable , fantastic tech , I can go on and on
charging in Scotland is free and mine came with Free supercharging ,so no costs ( I was over £300 per month on diesel before) and also have a Gov. charging station 200 yards from my work base.

so plenty of pluses .

BUT

It is a pain to have to think about charging especially on any journey over say 150-200 mls ,so you have to plan stops etc
you get no where near the range they say you should , mines is quoted as having a range at 230 miles ...most I get ever ---170 !! BUT on a warm dry sunny day.

In the winter with temps below 5-6 deg ? take at least 35% off that !! and if its short journeys ,well, it takes approx 10-12 mls to fully warm the batteries and motors up , so you use double the range for that distance. and they all tell you not to fully charge
them all the time, up to 90% charge only as recommended by all the ev makers , or you lose battery capacity !!

when mines was brand new when charged fully it showed 232 miles ,now after 18 months thats 225 -227 so lost about 5 miles , it seems too have stabilised around that ,but to get the last 15-20 miles of charge in takes around 30-40 mins longer ,so not worth waiting

So unless there is massive improvements in batteries / charging times etc , It would never be my only car in the household ,unless there is a MASSIVE programme in charging infrastructure ,which cannot appear overnight.

I'm guessing it's not the final answer ,hydrogen cell , or surely some sort of eco friendly bio fuel must be on the horizon ?

anyway only my opinion of owning a EV


QQ is the tax break only on new cars?


Life is like a box of chocolates, you always know what your gonna get! Thats why you buy them!
Re: Going electric [Re: elder81] #1637433
09/12/2019 12:36
09/12/2019 12:36
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,486
Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
paul Offline
My job on the forum
paul  Offline
My job on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,486
Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
Yes only on new cars rolleyes

Also I don't know about in England ,but in Scotland you can claim back 19% of the cars value from your bottom line corporation tax bill ,so I got over £14000 of my tax bill the first year ,and every other cost is tax deductible as well ..even the monthly payments.
I think its classed as equipment rather than a car ,or something like that , so every cost is off the bottom line ./

the deal was soo good , after my accountant and I checked it all out , both him and his business partner bought one each. smile

I had intended to buy a Porsche Macan, but I really wanted a 911, but no use for work, and huge tax implications as well
So with the money I am saving , I went out and ' personally bought' a older 911 (997.2 Carrera 4s Cab with only 19,000 mls ) and loving it to bits love

happy bunny cool

Last edited by paul; 09/12/2019 12:41.

was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: Going electric [Re: Gripped] #1637456
10/12/2019 13:33
10/12/2019 13:33
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,283
Maidenhead
elder81 Offline
Competition Level
elder81  Offline
Competition Level

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,283
Maidenhead
Might have to reach out to my accountant then smile


Life is like a box of chocolates, you always know what your gonna get! Thats why you buy them!
Re: Going electric [Re: elder81] #1637459
10/12/2019 13:56
10/12/2019 13:56
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,505
J
JKD Offline
Forum is my job
JKD  Offline
Forum is my job
J

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,505


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