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LED and HID mandatory fail. #1647909
15/01/2021 09:44
15/01/2021 09:44
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,562
FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising Offline OP
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Countrycruising  Offline OP
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As of Jan 2021 all Coupés fitted with hid and led kits will now fail an mot so keep a set of H1's bulbs to hand.
___________________________________________________

4.1.4[align:left][/align] Headlamps - Compliance with requirements - Changed sentence from 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.' to 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.'

Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647910
15/01/2021 10:38
15/01/2021 10:38
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 430
S Wales
Morrison Offline
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Morrison  Offline
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Enjoying the ride

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Posts: 430
S Wales
Well that's just marvellous

I'll stick one of these behind the grill and be done with it

brightness

Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Morrison] #1647911
15/01/2021 12:47
15/01/2021 12:47
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 29
Milford on Sea Hampshire
D
DavidFoster Offline
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D

Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 29
Milford on Sea Hampshire
Useful to know but this change seems to me illogical and therefore very annoying .

Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647912
15/01/2021 15:13
15/01/2021 15:13
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,676
highlands
jimboy Offline
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jimboy  Offline
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highlands
Ah feck!!!


I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647915
15/01/2021 17:53
15/01/2021 17:53
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,377
Kent
Submariner Offline
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Submariner  Offline
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Kent
May cut down on the number of people using what appears to be military grade 'dazzlers' or anti-personnel lasers for car headlights

Last edited by Submariner; 15/01/2021 17:54.
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647920
15/01/2021 20:05
15/01/2021 20:05
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,019
Kent, South East
Cooperman Offline
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Cooperman  Offline
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Enjoying the ride

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Kent, South East
That’s a pain, I wonder how strictly it will be applied?


[Linked Image]
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647922
15/01/2021 20:30
15/01/2021 20:30
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,676
highlands
jimboy Offline
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highlands
Originally Posted by Countrycruising
As of Jan 2021 all Coupés fitted with hid and led kits will now fail an mot so keep a set of H1's bulbs to hand.
___________________________________________________

4.1.4[align:left][/align] Headlamps - Compliance with requirements - Changed sentence from 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.' to 'Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with high intensity discharge (HID) or light emitting diode (LED) bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp.'


Is that dip as well Joe?


I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647927
16/01/2021 07:40
16/01/2021 07:40
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,595
Berlin
barnacle Offline
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Berlin
It will be, yes. I suspect that this is courtesy of the B word... previously they have been arguably acceptable on the grounds that they were acceptable throughout Europe, of which the UK was a part.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! [b]Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide[/b] <-- clicky!
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647930
16/01/2021 13:07
16/01/2021 13:07
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 168
Surrey
D
darthstinky Offline
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Surrey
I'm seeing a second set of light clusters with OEM bulbs to swap out at MOT time (not that I don't already swap the decat out at MOT time)

But most annoying....

*EDIT* I only read references to after market HIDs lights, nothing about LEDs....

DS

Last edited by darthstinky; 16/01/2021 18:23.

*******************************
20VT Money pit project status=starts, drives & MOTed! Happy Days.
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647935
16/01/2021 18:07
16/01/2021 18:07
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,595
Berlin
barnacle Offline
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Berlin
A point: the car must be able to pass an MOT test at any time. Therefore the use of them on the road is also illegal.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! [b]Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide[/b] <-- clicky!
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: barnacle] #1647936
16/01/2021 18:22
16/01/2021 18:22
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 168
Surrey
D
darthstinky Offline
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Surrey
Originally Posted by barnacle
A point: the car must be able to pass an MOT test at any time. Therefore the use of them on the road is also illegal.


Same risk for anyone running a decat, or an aftermarket ecu (which will change the emissions profile and fail a road side test) .... this isnt new.

DS


*******************************
20VT Money pit project status=starts, drives & MOTed! Happy Days.
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647941
16/01/2021 20:42
16/01/2021 20:42
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,597
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
DaveG Offline
Club Member 311
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Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,597
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
Aftermarket ECU usually doesn't affect emissions so much as to fail emissions though, IME

And as per the other thread, the new MoT text is in section 4.1.4 about half way down


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: darthstinky] #1647943
16/01/2021 21:48
16/01/2021 21:48
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,377
Kent
Submariner Offline
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Kent
Originally Posted by darthstinky
I'm seeing a second set of light clusters with OEM bulbs to swap out at MOT time (not that I don't already swap the decat out at MOT time)

But most annoying....

*EDIT* I only read references to after market HIDs lights, nothing about LEDs....

DS


What about reading a car number plate from a minimum distance of 20.5metres?

Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647954
17/01/2021 22:12
17/01/2021 22:12
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,943
South Cambs
B
Barmybob Offline
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B

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Posts: 7,943
South Cambs
I can understand the requirements for this, especially when people fit alternative lamps to old style headlamps with the lamp focus controlled by the glass. But cars like the Fiat coupé that have projector style lamps are far less of an issue and generally produce a defined beam with no scatter. The extra rules regarding headlamp washers and height adjusters is also odd as many cars with factory LED lamps don't now have washers!

Sadly the most frustrating issue with modern lamps is the height of headlamps from the ground. I have dimming rear view, and door mirrors and these are regularly activated by following vehicles. These following vehicles are rarely cars with incorrectly fitted lamps, it's usually "fully Legal" lamps fitted on Vans or 4x4's. These headlamps are higher than a car driver's usual head height. It is shocking that the type approval never addressed this issue, an issue I would saw is far worse and increasing.

So the law is an ass!

I suppose the only advantage, for the Coupé, is that it is fast becoming a car that will rarely be driven at night!


Gone Audi mad!
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1647976
19/01/2021 06:38
19/01/2021 06:38
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,595
Berlin
barnacle Offline
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Berlin
Two sets of legislation, Bob: Type approval says which bits you can fit / legally use on the road, and the Lighting Regulations say what colour and where lights can be fitted. They're very precise about minimum and maximum heights and also spacing from the outside of the vehicle and symmetry and suchlike, but the issue is that there are a lot of older vehicles whose dimensions got grandfathered in to the regs.

So anything other than a 'car' car - an SUV or a lorry for example - is likely to have higher lights than your low-slung car simply because from their point of view, they work better and they're legal.

Perhaps it's time for an update for the regs - but it still won't change anything significantly for twenty years or so.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! [b]Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide[/b] <-- clicky!
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648229
26/01/2021 09:06
26/01/2021 09:06
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 177
Godmanchester, Cambs
danb052k Offline
Club member 1352
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Godmanchester, Cambs
Hi All,

What are the alternatives to HID/LED's that people currently use? Other than ending up in a ditch of course!

I have HID's, i have recently split the headlights and refurbished them taking all the yellow gunk off, and i still don't think that my HID's on the coupe are anywhere near as good as my standard halogens on my van!! So the thought of putting halogens back in the coupe is as tempting as driving blind!

Thank you,
Dan

Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648254
26/01/2021 19:57
26/01/2021 19:57
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,595
Berlin
barnacle Offline
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Berlin
That's your only legal option, though. I'd be looking for the '180% brighter' or whatever the catchphrase is this year.

Perhaps members can suggest a make? I can't really get into Halfords these days... https://carnesmechanical.com/best-h1-bulbs/ suggest the Philips H1 X-tremeVision Upgrade Headlight Bulb is the one to go for, if you can find it.

It's been suggested in the past that if you've got the headlights apart, refitting the internal cables with a heavier gauge will help (though I have my doubts, unless you follow that all the way back to the fuse box) though some attention to the spade connectors and cleaning the reflectors could benefit things.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! [b]Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide[/b] <-- clicky!
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648285
27/01/2021 17:08
27/01/2021 17:08
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 91
Essex
1
1st_things_1st Offline
Club member 1460
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Reaping the fruits
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Posts: 91
Essex
As regards the halogen "candles", I think the "brighter / whiter" they are the shorter the life span as they over drive them (or whatever the phrase is).

They add a blue tint to get the output whiter which actually reduces useable output by our eyes, I believe.

If you want the "best of the worst" light output you want regular bulbs with no tinted glass (I think a GE one was mentioned once and maybe standard Bosch ones). Cheaper, last longer and "better" output.

Oh the joys of going back to "brown orange" light output. love biglaugh censored

Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648293
27/01/2021 19:11
27/01/2021 19:11
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,019
Kent, South East
Cooperman Offline
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Cooperman  Offline
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Kent, South East
Having checked my MOT is due in March so I suspect like many of us our options are;
a, see if it’s picked up by the tester and cross fingers
b, temporarily remove HID lamp and fit halogen lamp but leave HID drivers and wiring temp taped out of harms way.
c, return to permanent halogen candle lamps / fit auxiliary driving lights providing CE approved design.
Not sure We will be looking forward to MOT time with having to faff around with lamps but I couldn’t go back to candle power.


[Linked Image]
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648295
27/01/2021 19:39
27/01/2021 19:39
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 146
North Macedonia
386ka Online content
Club Member 1814
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North Macedonia
There's another option - trying to fit aftermarket projectors. I was almost doing that, but I managed to find okayish reflectors for my headlights. I think most of the light output from the headlights is lost in the burned reflectors, which can be additionally damaged by the high temperature emitted from high wattage bulbs, and definitely from HIDs. It also seems that even as standard on our cars, the reflective surface on the reflector is not of high quality, but I might be wrong about this.
Also, proper resurfacing of the reflectors should do the trick - but here in Macedonia it's not easy to find someone that does it.

And at the end - it's important to see the voltage received at the bulbs. For this, you need to start the car, switch on the lights and measure at the bulb. I think European standards for bulb light output and longevity are set for 13.2v at the bulb. Anything less than that negatively affects light output (I think the percentage difference in voltage affects the percentage of light output 3.4 times), and anything more than that will increase output, but decrease bulb life span. So if you experience less than 13v, it will be benefitial to fit relay circuit to up the voltage.

Last edited by 386ka; 27/01/2021 20:02.
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648296
27/01/2021 19:39
27/01/2021 19:39
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,597
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
DaveG Offline
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Posts: 7,597
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
Older HID conversions are generally easy to spot by the big ballasts stuck on the underside of the bonnet on on the side of the headlight housing, and/or the wires passing through the rubber caps. Newer HIDs had smaller ballasts but I don't think it was possible to squeeze them in behind the rubber caps (maybe some people have done this?) whereas LEDs can fit inconspicuously behind the rubber caps. Whilst the main beam "bulb" can be seen easily through the outer cover (and therefore it's easy to see if it is HID or LED) the dipped beam "bulb" is hidden behind the lens. Without removing the rubber cap (and AFAIK the MoT tester is not supposed to start taking things apart) I don't think it would be possible to know if there was an LED there (and thus get failed) but an HID is easily detected by the initial flash/dimming and slow warming up...


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Cooperman] #1648299
27/01/2021 19:57
27/01/2021 19:57
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,676
highlands
jimboy Offline
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highlands
Originally Posted by Cooperman
Having checked my MOT is due in March so I suspect like many of us our options are;
a, see if it’s picked up by the tester and cross fingers
b, temporarily remove HID lamp and fit halogen lamp but leave HID drivers and wiring temp taped out of harms way.
c, return to permanent halogen candle lamps / fit auxiliary driving lights providing CE approved design.
Not sure We will be looking forward to MOT time with having to faff around with lamps but I couldn’t go back to candle power.


Keep us informed Cooperman. I have LEDs I’m wondering is it easy to swap over to h1 bulbs from LEDs if not, I’m thinking of a spare pair of headlight units with h1 bulbs. chinny

Last edited by jimboy; 27/01/2021 19:58.

I'm an old git & happy with it,most of the time
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648333
28/01/2021 19:10
28/01/2021 19:10
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,407
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline
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Leicester UK
Is it because I eat lots of carrots that I actually think my candle powered lights are quite good??


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: Countrycruising] #1648337
28/01/2021 20:09
28/01/2021 20:09
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,597
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
DaveG Offline
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Posts: 7,597
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
Surely it's your aversion to doing anything bordering on illegal ?

Last edited by Ballypete; 30/01/2021 12:10.

1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: LED and HID mandatory fail. [Re: DaveG] #1648385
30/01/2021 12:11
30/01/2021 12:11
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,407
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline
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Leicester UK
Originally Posted by DaveG
Surely it's your aversion to doing anything bordering on illegal ?
good point, well presented
laugh


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...

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