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Guess the power!! #1650072
14/04/2021 16:25
14/04/2021 16:25
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Trappy Online happy OP
Club Member 1834
Trappy  Online Happy OP
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Forum is my life

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Following a fully forged rebuild, my Coupé will be off to see Leighton next week for a remap. After 6 years with forged pistons but standard rods, it's time to finally see what this turbo can do!

Previous spec
Hybrid GT28 (0.64 housing and custom compressor wheel)
82mm Wossner forged pistons
Balanced and shot-peened standard rods
Synapse Synchronic diverter valve
12v Fuel Pump Supply 'Wiring Mod'
FC Performance 3” 5 stud turbo-back, twin silencer exhaust system
A'PEXi Power intake
Pro Alloy 3” Straight Induction
Pro Alloy FMIC with FCP custom shortened pipe route
FC Performance 3D boost control system
Walbro GSS340 255l fuel pump
440cc fuel injectors
Big MAF

Mapped for mechanical sympathy (1.5bar, trailing off to 1.3bar at the redline) it made:
416bhp
328lbs/ft
Dyno charts attached for reference.

Changes - Now fully forged
82.5mm Wossner forged pistons (now 2022cc :D)
Maxspeeding rods
ARP 200 rod bolts
Seimens Deka 630cc injectors
Balance shaft removed


Attached Files
416bhp.gif (390 downloads)
416bhp-boost.gif (385 downloads)

F****** b****** thing...
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650073
14/04/2021 16:35
14/04/2021 16:35
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 584
Westcliff-on-sea,essex
aust_powers Offline
club member 1889
aust_powers  Offline
club member 1889
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 584
Westcliff-on-sea,essex
Nice! I'll take a guess at 480bhp smile


GT28rs,Pro alloy FMIC,Blueflame exhaust,SIP, Bosch 440cc,Helix organic clutch,Stage 3,331bhp,295lbft
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650077
14/04/2021 17:32
14/04/2021 17:32
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,614
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
DaveG Offline
Club Member 311
DaveG  Offline
Club Member 311
Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,614
Lightwater, Surrey, UK
450


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650082
14/04/2021 18:34
14/04/2021 18:34
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 329
born in Italy I live in German...
carmine Offline
Making a profit
carmine  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 329
born in Italy I live in German...
465

Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650107
15/04/2021 08:47
15/04/2021 08:47
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,196
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
Ex El Presidente
Begbie  Offline
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

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Posts: 12,196
Sandhurst
430bhp but 350-360lbs/ft on the torque. Assuming you are staying with the same turbo


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650129
15/04/2021 21:16
15/04/2021 21:16
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,012
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Je suis un Coupé
G

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,012
Southsea
440bhp

Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650137
15/04/2021 23:35
15/04/2021 23:35
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,384
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Gripped Offline
Club Member
Gripped  Offline
Club Member
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,384
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
435

6bhp for the extra cc plus 50% on top for turbo... Plus a wadge more for the big injectors.

laugh

Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Gripped] #1650153
16/04/2021 20:44
16/04/2021 20:44
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,807
Haslemere, Surrey
M
Mark_S Offline
Forum is my job
Mark_S  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,807
Haslemere, Surrey
I'd estimate 475.

Glad to see you still have the Coupe Ryan. I am toying with the idea of a return one day; not sure if I'd buy standard or go down the modified road again. You must be the only other person I know who had a Synpase valve; had one on mine fitted by Rog of course.


997 C4S
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650190
18/04/2021 16:34
18/04/2021 16:34
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level
knight7660  Offline
Competition Level

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,252
Windsor/ Reading
south of 450bhp due to your injectors running out. unless pushing past 90% duty cycle


LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: knight7660] #1650192
18/04/2021 16:37
18/04/2021 16:37
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Trappy Online happy OP
Club Member 1834
Trappy  Online Happy OP
Club Member 1834
Forum is my life

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Originally Posted by knight7660
south of 450bhp due to your injectors running out. unless pushing past 90% duty cycle


I forgot to add, it has a 3.8bar FPR.


F****** b****** thing...
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: knight7660] #1650236
20/04/2021 14:20
20/04/2021 14:20
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,278
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
Club Member 123
Nigel  Offline
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Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,278
Staffordshire
Originally Posted by knight7660
south of 450bhp due to your injectors running out. unless pushing past 90% duty cycle


630cc injectors must surely be good for more than 450bhp, even on the standard 3-bar FPR

I'm going for 487bhp - this is based on two factors:-

1) Your spec is now very close to mine
2) I'd be miffed if you got 489bhp.... ;-)

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the driveability with the big injectors - has Leighton worked out a way round the low load hunting that these give? (injectors are abruptly off or on at certain loads - they can't hold a steady light throttle).

I'd also be interested to hear how you get on with the cold start - my car doesn't like any load for the first couple of minutes after starting in cold weather (eg below say 5 degrees)


[Linked Image]
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Nigel] #1650256
20/04/2021 21:17
20/04/2021 21:17
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Trappy Online happy OP
Club Member 1834
Trappy  Online Happy OP
Club Member 1834
Forum is my life

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Don't tell me that now Nigel! I spent ages trying to convince Leighton it was worth going for Injector Dynamics' ID1050Xs but he insisted they were overkill!

Is it like this on all 20vTs running the 630s?

P.s Mine's going to be a fair bit lighter than yours :-)


F****** b****** thing...
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650266
21/04/2021 11:19
21/04/2021 11:19
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,625
FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
Countrycruising  Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
Forum veteran

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,625
FCSS 01684 593187
446bhp 380ftlb

Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650384
25/04/2021 09:28
25/04/2021 09:28
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,278
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
Club Member 123
Nigel  Offline
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Forum veteran

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,278
Staffordshire
Originally Posted by Trappy
Don't tell me that now Nigel! I spent ages trying to convince Leighton it was worth going for Injector Dynamics' ID1050Xs but he insisted they were overkill!

Is it like this on all 20vTs running the 630s?

P.s Mine's going to be a fair bit lighter than yours :-)


I agree that the ID1050Xs are overkill for the power you're after, but it would be interesting to know more about the spray pattern.

I have a theory (nothing more than that) that a too-wide spray pattern will cause less than perfect running at low revs / load, on the basis that some of the fuel is hitting the port walls. IIRC, the standard Coupe injector has a twin-cone spray of 10 degrees each, separated by two degrees. This pattern sprays straight down the throat of the ports, pretty much to the back of the valves.

To be fair to Leighton, getting a Coupe ECU to run at all on 630cc injectors is a triumph - back in "the early days" of Coupe modding, it was thought that 440cc was tha absolute limit. JohnS eventually baled out to a Motec ECU to get his 2.4 to run properly.

I'd really like to know what ECU options are available now


[Linked Image]
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650394
25/04/2021 20:23
25/04/2021 20:23
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,807
Haslemere, Surrey
M
Mark_S Offline
Forum is my job
Mark_S  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,807
Haslemere, Surrey
We need to know....


997 C4S
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Mark_S] #1650425
26/04/2021 17:04
26/04/2021 17:04
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Trappy Online happy OP
Club Member 1834
Trappy  Online Happy OP
Club Member 1834
Forum is my life

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
It didn't go so well on the day...

Leighton said he had to back off the map it had previously because the car was not responding well at all. As soon as it hit 6,000rpm, it was detecting knock and started dumping fuel.

It spooled up really well and made 360lbs/ft at only 1.5bar (previously, it made 328lb/ft at the same pressure) but promptly died off at the top end. He said he had to dial out 4 degrees of timing to remedy it and by then it was making no power. Peak power was only 384bhp. He was going to go for 1.8bar so there was scope for plenty more torque if the top end was playing ball.

Suspecting the head may have been skimmed one time too many over the years, Leighton checked the compression and found 3 cyclinders to be 162 psi (they should be 140-150 on Wossner pistons). By the time he went to check the fourth, the battery (and two power packs) were dead and we had to push start it outside his shop. The battery died on the way home while I refueled and I had to get a push start from two gents (who were washing a Calibra) in a Shell garage forecourt…

So it needs new head before it will start flowing at the top end and make proper power. I think the head I have now has been skimmed three times so it ws inevitable really...

Onwards then, it's having a 2.4 head and, hopefully, pretty soon!


F****** b****** thing...
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650433
26/04/2021 20:34
26/04/2021 20:34
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,753
In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
Club Member 259
magooagain  Offline
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Forum is my life

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,753
In the coupe.
Sorry to read about the head problems mate.
It will be a beast when on song.



Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Begbie] #1650441
27/04/2021 08:52
27/04/2021 08:52
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,196
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
Ex El Presidente
Begbie  Offline
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,196
Sandhurst
As Joe says, sorry to read about that Ryan, especially after all the work you have put into her recently. Had a head skim been done since when it was mapped to now? Just curious as to why the problem showed up whilst being mapped?

Originally Posted by Begbie
430bhp but 350-360lbs/ft on the torque. Assuming you are staying with the same turbo

At least I guessed right on the torque for the time being laugh


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Begbie] #1650444
27/04/2021 11:23
27/04/2021 11:23
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Trappy Online happy OP
Club Member 1834
Trappy  Online Happy OP
Club Member 1834
Forum is my life

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,261
Essex
Originally Posted by Begbie
Had a head skim been done since when it was mapped to now? Just curious as to why the problem showed up whilst being mapped?


It had the current head fitted at some point prior to 2008 when the cambelt snapped and it bent all the valves. My records are patchy from back then but presumably it was skimmed.

It melted a piston in 2009 so the head may have been skimmed again then.

It was definitely skimmed this time around.

I can only assume this was one skim too many?

Originally Posted by Begbie

Originally Posted by Begbie
430bhp but 350-360lbs/ft on the torque. Assuming you are staying with the same turbo


At least I guessed right on the torque for the time being laugh


It made that torque at 1.5bar though, if it'd been mapped at 1.8bar, you'd have been wrong tongue

Last edited by Trappy; 27/04/2021 13:59.

F****** b****** thing...
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650446
27/04/2021 12:05
27/04/2021 12:05
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 176
Free State of Jones
clanger Offline
On a journey
clanger  Offline
On a journey

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 176
Free State of Jones
Can you not fit a thicker head gasket? https://www.protoxide.eu/en/head-ga...arate-rings-fiat-coupe-20-20v-turbo.html

It used to be the solution years ago, I don't know if it is now frowned upon...


E85
Re: Guess the power!! [Re: Trappy] #1650502
29/04/2021 04:53
29/04/2021 04:53
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 191
Czech republic
Honza Offline
On a journey
Honza  Offline
On a journey

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 191
Czech republic
instead of thicker gasket, machine slightly deeper bowl in pistons... who build that engibe could check the CR and squish band and could prevent this situation🤔


20 years with yellow 2.0 16v NA


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