I think there is some confusion as to whether or not its possible to 'live map' the coupe after Nigel mentioned it wasn't possible to do it.
I've just been speaking to Claudio at Perfect Touch and they said that they would require the number off the ECU to check if its possible to map it.
Not sure on the different software that came in the coupes ECU (maybe GrahamL could clear it up ?) and at what year it changed but it sounds like it is still possible for this 'Live Mapping' to be done so long as you have the correct ECU.

Fingers crossed I have the correct type <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If not then they can still fit a Unichip and get the same results.

I think the problem for Nigel was that they couldn't accomodate bigger injectors with live mapping. A standard car should be mappable as all they will likely change is the fueling and timing.

I've only ever seen 2 firmware versions from 20vt's , DAMOS14 upto '97 and DAMOS15 from '97 to 2000.

However, on http://www.remapping.co.uk/ it lists 3 firmware versions for 20vt coupes, but the ECU type ( Bosch M 2.10.4) and reference (0261204483) is identical for all 3.

The 16 bit checksum for the latest version DAMOS15 is $51e0 which they have top on the list, and for older version DAMOS14 is $2041, so it's the $d966 checksum version they have in the middle that i've not seen.

There are good and bad points to the "live mapping" thing... in theory live mapping using the existing ECU and firmware will provide superior results to the Unichip, but it's really all down to how well the operator knows the firmware version/ECU in question, how well he knows his re-mapping software and how much time is spent.

The re-mapping guy won't have the original Bosch software used to develop and test the coupe firmware, may not fully understand how the maps all interact with each other on any particular model of car/ecu and won't spend more than a few hours doing it... whereas a unichip mapper should know the remapping software inside out and only has 2 parameters to play with (ignition timing + fuelling) so in reality unless the "live map" guy knows the coupe ecu/firmware very well and has spent weeks re-mapping it I'd think it's likely you'd get equally good or better results with a unichip.

Well I think they are having a few coupes before mine so they will have had some practice by then <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

They do both Unichip and Live Map so I'm sure they will just do the Unichip if they dont get the results.

yes,

but if they spend a couple of hours on the livemap and they're not happy, are they going to charge both the hours wasted on the livemap and the hours spend maping your car after the unichip? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

V.

Call me stupid, but surely live mapping only involves those 2 parameters being adjusted as well, so no knowledge of interaction bewteen the ECU is not needed to be known? Not unless your going to be creating a whole new map (base map, enrichment map, coolant map, air temp map, etc..)

I would say knowledge in relation to how the other maps it stores will change as well is maybe what graham meant?

As i said many times before i had my car live mapped on the standard Bosch ECU about 2years ago and the results were great. The guy said everything went smoothly. On the box standard engine with just a de-cat/induction kit I had an increase of 51.7BHP and 44.5FT/LB. I paid £180 for 3hours dyno time. I have the map if anyone is intrested.

What he means is that the Bosch system uses its own format to store the data. The original Bosch equiment will know where to look and interperate this data but if you haven't got this then it makes the job harder. Aftermarket software may not be able to find this info therefore you may manualley have to find it and intreperate yourself. Each different firmware version could sore the data in different memory locations of the eeprom. This is more electroincs that acutal mapping.

Unichip and software was developed to use its own locations therefore all the mapper has to do is input/adjust the data in order to map the car.

If you have the correct software that is able to adjust the original ECU i really don't see a difference between "a live map" and "unichipping"

I take it TunerPro doesn't work with this ECU then?

V.

I realise that, but what i was trying to get at, is you dont need to know the bosch inside out to find the ignition and fuel maps to be able to access them, modify and then save them (onto a new chip obviously)

The Unichip doesn't need to know anything about the ecu as it only interrupts the signal. As long as you know the Unichip software then you can interrupt as much as you want.

Yes, your right you don't. But removing and reading an eeprom and extracting the correct data then being about to map and re-program the chip is way out of range for most mapping places as it dips into the real electronics side of things, so for this reason that is why they prefer unichip. I know you know this Bebgie but its to help the people who don't

What I'm trying to say really and truly is there is NO difference between using the "live mapping" and "unichip" except for the ability of the person who does it.

Hi there Jimbo, not trying to hi jack your post, just some additional info that will not interfere with thetechnical dicussion going on in here.

Hope you are ok with it

TurobJ,

you are absolutely right, but that's exactly what I don't like with Unichip:
conceptually it's a bad hack, making the ECU think that something else is happening behind its back...

V.

Yes that is also true. I would nevr use unichip for me or any other piggy back it would be a "live map" or "standalone". But does have it benifits in terms of aviablity

Can unichip change the rev limit and the VVT or is that data not patchable and stored within the firmware?

Yes, but the unichip only has those 2 simple parameters (ignition timing and fuelling) and it's hardware is designed to interface with the mapping software, whereas with the Bosch ECU the timing and ignition values are calculated by the ECU and aren't based on simple "one to one" relationship maps as with the unichip and how it modifies the ECU signals.

With the OEM ECU other maps and sensor values like throttle position, engine revs, intake air temp + pressure, water temp, even battery voltage, are taken into consideration and modify the values from the base fuelling and ignition maps, so to give results better than the unichip and more ideally suited for the car those things should be taken into consideration.

If "live mapping" only changes the base fuel + full throttle ignition/fuelling maps (as the "plug 'n' play" chips do) then it'll obviously be a much easier and quicker job, but I can't see how that can give better results than a unichip since it's not taking all the other maps and interactions into consideration either.

If you make further mods to the car is going back for a re-map with a unichip cheaper than going back for another live map? If so I'd personally go with the unichip.

Well in that case unichip CANNOT understand the full condiction of the engine and this is the main reason why i think it's no good. However....


Yes, that is also ture. But if the mappers are able to totally use all information then it kinda of becomes a standalone ECU.


That is correct providing they are only able to manipulate fuel and ignition.

So i think if Live mapping can only change fuel & ignition then get unichip but if they are able to change more factors then "Live mapping" is the way to go.

My original thoughts.

I am very interested to see what happens with this live mapping. If its possible, i may book myself in to get it checked out.

Ross

Yes that's true, it basically just takes the final result of all the ecu's calculations and sensor data and makes a "x" change to it at different rev points for fuelling and ignition advance.

What i'm saying is that there isn't an equivalent and simple 1 to 1 relationship map for either ignition of fuelling in the bosch firmware, so it's more difficult with live mapping to achieve the *same* results as a unichip and a *lot* more difficult to achieve better results. It's all down to the skill and experience of the mapper... and how much time they've got to play with.

If you are using standard OE injectors, then really you want to have standard firmware for idle, low load, partial throttle enrichment etc etc in other words, the standard firmware for all maps apart from your main ignition and fuelling maps.

The Unichip adjusts the MAF voltage (slightly) to *fool* the car intio believing you are running a different airflow to adjust the fuel.
As the MAF is maxxed above 300bhp or oso, it is much easier to reduce the fuelling rather than add it in above this level.
The Unichip adjusts the timing of the phase sensor signal to give more less ignition advance.
All this is mapped to revs at varying intervals depending on the unichip.

So in all honesty, I cannot see any advantage to live mapping over the Unichip as the other maps should not be affected anyway, and of course the results will depend on the skill of the mapper.

However,... if you are running different injectors, or very high spec (>400bhp) then you really need to ditch the standard ECU and its MAF sensor (or fit a bigger one!)and go with more reliable MAP. This would mean that live mapping probably isnt appropriate either as you still have to stick with the standard MAF, and from 300-400bhp the ECU is just guessing what the airflow should be!

joe

Joe, I dont think there is any advantage in Live Mapping, like you say it just does exactly the same as a Unichip does.
I think the advantage is in price, its over £100 cheaper to get it live mapped. I guess also its one less thing to go wrong if your keeping the standard ECU and not fitting extra parts into the ECU's loom.

Live mapping has been around for quite a few years with the likes of the Milenium Chip, its just not many people have heard or used them and instead go for the Unichip. Im betting that nearly 30% of modded coupes are driving around with a Gtec2 chip in them and that was based on a live mapped milenium chip (correct me if im wrong GrahamL) so the system must work ?

Right to simplfy this a bit :

Live mapping is the same as a P'n'P chip (i.e. Gtec1 or 2) but the chip is mapped for your car, not a generic chip which might suit your mods and have the fuelling rich / lean, it would also be tweaked for part throttle where as the P'n'P chip might not? Also the ECU doesn't care on what injectors are in, as the fueling can be corrected for the injectors

Unichip is a crude way of mapping, as it is tricking the ECU into false values, yes it might be easier to map with, but it is also easier to get wrong, costs a lot more than live mapping and still has it problems (Nigel injectors being the main one)

Live Mapping may not be able to do all you say Begbie, it depends on whether the mapper has access to the correct parameters. As Graham says it is most likely to be just fueling and timing that can be changed, the same as the Unichip. The ecu does care what injectors it sees for idle, throttle enrichment, closed loop as it will struggle to compensate unless you can change things like injector pulse width and make the lambda integrator near enough zero. The Unichip can successfully change these things and I think Nigel has been unfortunate with a damaged eprom and temp sensor in that it keeps messing with his set-up.

I also have some issues mapping 440cc injectors on 16VT engine.

I think the main problem is knowing exaclty how the injector pulse value is calculated. I know there are few factors applied to mapped values but there are also external values added to get the final pulse value. For example I know there is a voltage compensation table that adds injection duration according to the ecu voltage read. I suppose the 20VT ecu can have a more advanced injection pulse calculation.

On my 16V I needed to decrease the injection map to about 25-30% to have a drivable fueling. This is close to twice as I should have to do (440cc flows about 15% more than 16VT standard injectors). If the "secondary" fueling tables weight too much in the calculation formula I can understand the ecu algorithm have trouble to adjust fueling in closed loop mode.

TurboJ - I dont belive the unichip can raise the rev limit - the base chip would have to be changed by a squadra chip or a custom chip by grahamL. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So lets just say it - If dont spend the money required on a fully mapable after market systems you are always working to a comprimise. If you want to tune the car I'd create a goal, then formulate the steps needed to acheive that goal, and if thats a financial contraint then just wait until you can purchase and fund all the required things to reach the goal. Rather than adding one item complaining the car doesnt feel right, then adding another item and saying something else. Really above a chip and filter level, then its an all or nothing approach, and the unichip falls into the latter.

Rich

OK let me clear up some live mapping issues since i've had it done. This is what they did:
1) Opened my ECU and removed the EEPROM from the socket.
2) Inserted it into an EEPROM reader and read the contents out.
3) Put the car on the rollers with an adaptor plugged into my ECU emulating the read MAP on their Laptop.
4) Mapped the engine using their own software (3 Hours Dyno time)
5) Test drove the car on the road and made any final adjustments.
6) Wrote the finished MAP file to a compatiable EEPROM chip.
7) Put chip back into ECU socket and done a final test drive.
8) Gave me my results and explained that my ECU was really compatiable and every thing when smooth.
Charged me £180 ALL IN.

So the Unichip should be considered a nothing approach??!! Rich, I'm interested to know why you think this because the Unichip works for a lot of coupés on here and many 1000s of different cars worldwide...

TurboJ, this was on a standard 20vt with standard injectors yes? Do you know what they changed in your live mappping? My guess it was open loop fueling maps and ignition timing... so yes, it can be done and has been done. For those that want to run bigger injectors it's not so black and white.

£180 ALL IN !!

Who did that work for you, Perfect Touch are wanting three times that amount <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />