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Jan 14th, 2020
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Bigger Injectors?
#23023
11/01/2006 08:34
11/01/2006 08:34
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I think my next mod on the car would be to uprate the injectors and the fuel reg, What injectors are the best to go for? and do i need a new chip or remap to run them?As on Barbs site it says you need engine managment to do the job ie unichip etc is this right or can Graham L program me a new Gtech 2 chip to allow the new injectors to run.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23024
11/01/2006 08:44
11/01/2006 08:44
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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for a proper new set of larger injectors i would say a unichip(Group Buy plug) or such like would be best. i believe the injectors off 16vt coupes flow more fuel and are a direct fit for 20vt engines but beyond that im not sure what the big boys are running for their 400bhp+ monsters....
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23025
11/01/2006 08:51
11/01/2006 08:51
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Think some of them are running integrale injectors!
Ross
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23026
11/01/2006 08:53
11/01/2006 08:53
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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So i cant run bigger injectors on my current Gtech 2 chip then?
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23027
11/01/2006 08:55
11/01/2006 08:55
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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Not advisable probably no. But then again, what do i know?  Ross
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23028
11/01/2006 09:16
11/01/2006 09:16
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Im pretty sure you can but it may overfuel while the ECU relearns the new injectors. i would say if you fit them with the GTEC2 unplug the ecu to flush its old learning out and force it to start afresh... I would also ask GrahamL if he thinks there would be an issue with his chip or not to be on the safe side  Should be fine though.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23029
11/01/2006 10:37
11/01/2006 10:37
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Only way to run larger injectors is with proper management system. Options are unichip or motec.
The cheapest option is unichip + 16vt injectors which will flow aprox 400bhp. Talking 100-300 for injectors depending on condition. Remember all need to be cleaned and flow / bench tested so exact match. Then talking £500 give or take for unichip and mapping.
TBH the standard injectors should be good for 340ish. May want to look at fuel pump and pressure reg 1st.
Around 350bhp and above is where you really risk destroying the ringlands on the pistons. Bear that in mind as at best would be talking forged pistons and at worst full rebuild with new block.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23030
11/01/2006 17:45
11/01/2006 17:45
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Think some of them are running integrale injectors!
Ross
Not big enough for 400bhp. I'm running some Siemens 900cc injectors, I know a couple of big power integrales running the same ones. Keith at Auto Integrale can get hold of these
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23031
11/01/2006 17:46
11/01/2006 17:46
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Only way to run larger injectors is with proper management system. Options are unichip or motec.
The cheapest option is unichip + 16vt injectors which will flow aprox 400bhp. Talking 100-300 for injectors depending on condition. Remember all need to be cleaned and flow / bench tested so exact match. Then talking £500 give or take for unichip and mapping.
TBH the standard injectors should be good for 340ish. May want to look at fuel pump and pressure reg 1st.
This is so vital, dont even think about not doing its as fundemental as actually changing the actual items. I had a set of single pintle spray injectors from barbs, they came off a working grale. I had them tested a 2 of them could reach no where near the flow of the other 2, Im so glad I did this, the company I used was called mech repairs (recommended by OMEX), they supplied 2 other weber injectors which flowed within a few % of the others. The mentioned that maserati had some injectors that were a direct swap that could flow even more, but I dont know the details.
If you dont map it then you are cheating yourself out of the money you have put into the car. I would recommend joining the unichip group buy.
rich
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23033
11/01/2006 21:06
11/01/2006 21:06
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yes, you definately require a mappable engine ECU to run bigger injectors.
There is some debate as to whether the Unichip is good enough to run bigger injectors, so I would personally speak to either Dastek, or to Paul at PTS (performance turbo systems Luton 01582 731733) before going down this route.
The DTA or Motec are better more expensive choices.
However, all of this can be academic, as Fergie mentions certainyl beyond 350bhp you really ought to be looking at forged pistons etc and approprate turbo for the job, you'll also need an uprated paddle clutch etc so all in all an expensice proposition.
So for up to 350bhp, you can generally stick with OE injectors, but remember you'll need good ECU/intercooler/turbo/exhaust etc etc to get near to this figure
Joe
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23034
11/01/2006 21:58
11/01/2006 21:58
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,588
Essex
Rog20VT
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,588
Essex
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Quote:
If you dont map it then you are cheating yourself out of the money you have put into the car. I would recommend joining the unichip group buy.
rich
this is so true. you really do need to be considering getting mapped now to smoothen out your power band, which will also give more power still.
IMO i wouldnt bother with the injectors yet, get mapped and take it from there, paul at PTS will advise if your injectors are maxing out.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23035
11/01/2006 23:56
11/01/2006 23:56
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
Only way to run larger injectors is with proper management system. Options are unichip or motec.
The cheapest option is unichip + 16vt injectors which will flow aprox 400bhp. Talking 100-300 for injectors depending on condition. Remember all need to be cleaned and flow / bench tested so exact match. Then talking £500 give or take for unichip and mapping.
TBH the standard injectors should be good for 340ish. May want to look at fuel pump and pressure reg 1st.
Around 350bhp and above is where you really risk destroying the ringlands on the pistons. Bear that in mind as at best would be talking forged pistons and at worst full rebuild with new block.
ive a set of 16vt injectors yours for £125 incl postage.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23036
12/01/2006 00:10
12/01/2006 00:10
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Jamie what mods are you running at the minute??
The only reason to go for bigger injectors is if when being RR'd you find the injectors are maxing out and cant supply enough fuel... TO be honest i would go for it if the injectors were maxing out but fuelling was OK as it would allow you some scope for wear and build up on the injectors over time as well and with a unichip could take full advantage of them when setup.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23037
12/01/2006 00:15
12/01/2006 00:15
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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I will have to wait then until i can afford new engine managment, which is going to have to be after my wedding in September which is costing me a fortune, but it will be worth it?? Do you think for the time being i should have my standard injectors cleaned and checked ? has any one else done this ?will it make any difference??
Cheers
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23039
12/01/2006 02:36
12/01/2006 02:36
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Flea have you not had yours off and ultra sonicly cleaned and flow tested??
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23040
12/01/2006 04:26
12/01/2006 04:26
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Thats what i was talking about, what you said Kingpleb, do you think it is worth doing as after 70k they cant be like new. Do you know how much this costs?
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23041
12/01/2006 04:28
12/01/2006 04:28
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Also could you run bigger injectors using a Apexi fuel controller instead of paying for new managment.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23042
13/01/2006 10:44
13/01/2006 10:44
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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The Apexi works by modifying the signal from the airflow meter. In theory it would be possible to do it, but would need to be mapped / monitored on a RR and you run the risk of the car 'overriding' the apexi as happened to someone trying to map using a modded standard type chip. IMO I think 360bhp is impossible with standard injectors. However clean they are. Would like to see graphs from more than one RR Just cleaning them will cost you aprox £100, but you could get that money back if you came to sell them. Main benifits are better throttle responce, maybe better economy and posibly slighlty more power. Certainly wouldn't do any harm! Shouldn't be any reason why the unichip can't control 16vt injectors. Gerry said it was much the same as setting up a cossie. The larger the injectors, the harder it gets though. Real proof will be when the car is back on the road though...
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23043
13/01/2006 18:42
13/01/2006 18:42
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Quote:
IMO I think 360bhp is impossible with standard injectors. However clean they are. Would like to see graphs from more than one RR
Fergie... come on now, I have shown all my RR charts and two runs have been witnessed by fellow forum members
Oh and they haven't been cleaned except with a little bit of Redex and lots of Optimax.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23045
14/01/2006 10:43
14/01/2006 10:43
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Nice strong curves those m8  But i'd say 'loosing' 90bhp would back up what I said about injector fueling BTW You had her on the 1/4?
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23047
15/01/2006 23:39
15/01/2006 23:39
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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FMFBI, Guys how about upgraded fuel pressure regulator eg FSE with standard injectors will this make a mildly modded coop like mine go better (faster?). I have a Novitec chip with a blitz sbc idii ebc, straight thru exhaust. This is about the extent of mods I have done, can't compare to what you have done ofcourse.
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23048
16/01/2006 03:56
16/01/2006 03:56
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Air + Fuel = power.
So basically the more air your engine has in it (ie from a larger turbo or running higher boost) the more fuel your engine needs to make use of that extra air.
If there isn't enough fuel it will run lean and start to detonate. If there is too much fuel, it will run rich and could if it is extensive enough cause damage to the turbo and also the engine itself.
Therefore upgrading your fueling is only worth while if your engine actually needs the extra fuel. Some coupes do have a habbit of running lean at the top end due to problems with voltage so an uprated fuel pump can help combat this
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23049
16/01/2006 05:55
16/01/2006 05:55
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,565
Berlin
barnacle
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,565
Berlin
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Just throwing my two pennyworth in... The ecu - as designed by Mr Bosch - works in two modes. Closed loop mode, when you're idling or cruising, relies on the signal from the lambda sensor to set the mixture to the correct stoichiometric ratio. If the injectors flow too much, the injector period will be reduced till the mix is right. Open loop mode - aka mapped mode - acknowledges that in changing conditions, particularly hard acceleration, the lambda sensor is not fast enough to be able properly to monitor the mix in real time. Instead, the ecu looks at the mapped injector periods, tweaks them a little for air and water temperatures, and applies the calculated amount of squirt. BUT... this relies on the injectors actually delivering the fuel for which the ecu was originally calibrated. The injectors are designed to operate at a constant pressure differential between the inlet plenum and the fuel rail; there's a mechanical pressure regulator coupling the two. If you use injectors which have a higher flow rate, or increase the fuel rail pressure, you *will* run rich in open loop mode. If you have insufficient voltage at the fuel pump, you may not be able to maintain the fuel pressure in the rail (or possibly simply insufficient volume). While it's likely that the engine will still work properly in closed loop mode, it's by no means guaranteed, with the likelihood of excess emissions with high flow or high pressure modifications. As others have said, if you're going to change the injectors or the fuel rail pressure, you should also re-map the engine control unit. Neil 
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Re: Bigger Injectors?
#23050
19/01/2006 09:26
19/01/2006 09:26
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
JohnS
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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Quote:
The wheels figure for PTS was 297bhp so that's a loss of 17.5% which is pretty good for FWD. It's also interesting to note that at the November Powerstation day I had the lowest transmission losses of all the cars running @ 20% with many coupes achieving slightly less power than expected. Now I know RRs are always a contentious issue but they have consistently run my car at 360bhp on four separate occasions whether it is in the height of summer or near zero degrees in winter and the injectors while near the limit have still provided perfect fueling right to redline. If it was the case that PTS and Powerstation were both wrong then that's about 50% or more of the forum coupes that have been hoodwinked over the years I can't give you any more proof than what you asked but it is fair to say I run 360bhp daily on standard injectors
340BHP is rougly the safe limit because you're at around 80% duty then. You can get more out of them, but the one thing that all tuners consistently say is that it aint safe to do so. If the injector gets even the slightest particles interrupting their flow you will end up with a catastrophic disaster, and on a 5+ year old car all your injectors won't run the same amount of fuel.
BTW Flea, can I have my injectors back please? 
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