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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269326
04/01/2007 01:54
04/01/2007 01:54
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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the area of the pad isnt as relevant as the piston area, can you measure the piston diameter John?
Rich
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269327
04/01/2007 18:45
04/01/2007 18:45
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Thanks for the info John (a bit concerned on the availability of Stilo Abarths in Greece tbh, probably less than a dozen sold as engine size >2.0lt == extremely high tax!) unless I source some from Italy/Germany...
Rich: isn't it both piston diametre and pad area that matters in "clamping force" measurement?
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269329
04/01/2007 19:16
04/01/2007 19:16
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Yes thats right vas, force over area. But if the pistons arent bigger then there will be no more braking force, from the piston alone. I suspect they are bigger, but with the slightly smaller disc, will this gain anything, I dont know. What is more interesting is a thicker disc as this is very beneficial to cooling, not sure they'd fit under my 15inch rims though with out some larger spacers.
Rich
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269331
04/01/2007 22:38
04/01/2007 22:38
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I'm running the stilo front discs on my 16VT but I didn't fit the stilo calipers because I didn't find any of them. BUT I found that the front calipers from Fiat ulysse, Peugeot 806 etc fit the 16VT with the 281x26 discs. They are 57mm calipers and works with the standard 16VT pads ! Calipers are from Lucas Girling also, and pad patterns are exactly the same. The only difference is the stronger caliper with larger piston. So it looks totally standard.
I think that 140 bhp JTD stilo got the same brakes.
Last edited by JMA; 04/01/2007 22:39.
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269334
05/01/2007 03:32
05/01/2007 03:32
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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stilo piston is 57mm also I prefered the 806 route as their calipers are very easy to find from breakers and are a direct fit. You can even keep your used pads
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269336
05/01/2007 15:22
05/01/2007 15:22
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I'm interested to know the dimensions of the pads
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269337
05/01/2007 16:32
05/01/2007 16:32
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
pad surface area does make a difference though particularly on slider style calipers.
John, care to elaborate? cheers
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269338
05/01/2007 17:12
05/01/2007 17:12
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
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can't remember the ins and outs of the formulas but disc contact radius is part of it (and therefore the depth of the pad and disc surface depth is important) and for slider calipers the slider area also matters as its size is part of the effective area of the piston.
Pad sizes - 16VT pad is 130mm x53mm Stilo pad is 150mm x 57mm
As mentioned all these caliper bits are likely to be interchangeable anyway as they are all Lucus/Girling type calipers.
BTW there are plenty of uprated Stilo Abarth discs available not just solid OE replacement discs.
Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269339
05/01/2007 17:37
05/01/2007 17:37
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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16VT pads are 130x59. The length is the pad overall length excluding contact material.
Are u sure the stilo calipers are from lucas girling ? I was thinking they were from bosch. Maybe Fiat mixed the brands ?
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269340
05/01/2007 17:49
05/01/2007 17:49
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
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I need some sleep
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I think it is 59mm if you measure from the absolute top to absolute bottom, but I am measuring across the surface area at the angle of the pad as it contacts the disc along a single radius point(if that makes sense) so my measurements are wrong in absolute terms but correct for any maths you would want to do on it. I will check the branding of the caliper when I take it off on the weekend or next week. But they are still of that sort even if they are manufactured by Bosch What I find most bizarre is that the Stilo Abarth caliper is exclusive to the car - not available on any other car AFAIK including the Alfas (which have a different caliper again). Anyway, the objective of the exercise is to find likely upgrades to the 16VT setup and I think you have already identified one using the Stilo discs I don't even own a 16VT
Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269341
05/01/2007 18:44
05/01/2007 18:44
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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It makes sense... Here is a catalog (in french sorry) thats shows pads patterns and sizes : Oscaro car parts Would be nice to have pics of 16VT pads, stilo pads and calipers. Stilo abarth/JTD 140 calipers are very difficult to find unfortunately.
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269343
05/01/2007 20:28
05/01/2007 20:28
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Why dont we all just save our pennies and buy 18" rims and a Tarox big brake upgrade
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269344
05/01/2007 20:41
05/01/2007 20:41
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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The master cylinder of 20VT isn't larger so this is not an issue. I have no problem.
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269345
05/01/2007 20:43
05/01/2007 20:43
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,033 I WANT F40
S1MMA
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Quote:
So if you're looking for a relatively cheap conversion then this might well be the way to go. Certainly there isn't likely to be much demand for Stilo abarth calipers from breakers yards
I think you need to ask another related question before considering this conversion, is there likely to be any stilo abarths in breakers yards? It's not like you see any (forget many) on the roads! I've seen probably a handful on the road since they've been released. Fiat cant have sold many. Also, the related cost and effort (locating/purchasing rare calipers is time consuming) on this conversion doesn't seem to give a worthwhile upgrade to stock 16vt brakes, with a slightly smaller diameter disc, slightly larger pad, and probably not a huge difference in piston diameter.
How much does a set of uprated discs and pads cost in that size? I assume it would be approx £200 for decent discs and pads (say 3g disc or similar with decent pads)? Then the cost of calipers (say between £100 and £200 if you need carriers and the breakers yard where you eventually managed to find a set thinks they have value as the car is so rare, this is down to luck), then you'd need new brake lines maybe? You're not going to get much change from £500. How much would a total 20VT braking setup including stub axels etc... cost? Carlt? £350? I'm not sure why you wouldn't use the 20VT brake setup on a Stilo Johns, it's a far superior braking setup than a 280mm single piston floating caliper design. Personally I think that people that moan about their 20VT brakes don't have all their parts in A1 condition, or use old fluid etc...
I did a trackday at brands hatch in my 20VT alongside Akeme in his 20VT, his car lasted 4-5 laps before his brakes faded, whereas I melted off the wheel centres on the front wheels, but didnt get a hint of fade after 20 full on laps under tuition (and for the whole day infact). I was using new Motul RBF600 fluid with 3G discs, and Ferodo DS2500 pads, he was using old fluid, with Pagid Blues. Moral is, the 20VT brakes arent that bad, you just need to keep on top of them (make sure the pads aren't sticking to the pad guides (after corrosion - probably responsible for most of the warped discs I hear about), keep replacing the friction parts, and use fresh new fluid!).
Up to you what you want to do, but I think getting a 20VT brembo setup will far outperform the above conversion, as long as they go under your wheels on a 16VT (get some 20vt wheels on there while you're at it IMO!).
Sideways a LOT
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269346
05/01/2007 21:52
05/01/2007 21:52
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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The 806 calipers cost me about 50 pounds and I needed to change the discs so this was the good time for me to do this brake upgrade. It was really easy to do, a diy job.
The 57mm piston gives the same piston area as the 20VT brembos. And the 284 x 22 discs are just ridiculous regarding the weight of the car.
For information, integrale evo also got 281x26 discs but with brembos calipers.
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269347
05/01/2007 22:10
05/01/2007 22:10
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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so u stop can stop on a penny now JMA ?
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269348
05/01/2007 22:11
05/01/2007 22:11
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,033 I WANT F40
S1MMA
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Competition Level
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I WANT F40
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whats the piston area of the 4 20VT brembo's compared to a single 57mm piston? Anyone done the calculation?
Also, having 4 seperate pistons surrounding 2 pads gives a more even braking force across the 2 pads, and more consistent application of that force. The floating caliper design tends to give inconsistent pressure which is why you find that the pads on the inside tend to wear out quicker than the outside pads (or vice versa in some designs). The size of the pads also tends to be larger with a multi piston design. The 20VT pad friction area is rectangular, not long and thin (and curved) like the above mentioned pads. When used on a 305mm disc, braking pressure will also be larger even with the same area pad (moment of force theory).
Sideways a LOT
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269350
05/01/2007 22:33
05/01/2007 22:33
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
OP
I need some sleep
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OP
I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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Simma, your comparing swapping disc, caliper and pad with swapping disc, caliper, pad, driveshaft, hub, hub carrier, wheel bearings and having to change alloys.
I got my 2001 GTV 2.0 calipers (same as 16VT)with pads for 40 quid, and could've taken the discs for nothing. THat in comparison to what is about 4-500 quids worth of gear from a 20VT and a lot more on insurance besides.
Anyway if the 20VT setup is so good why did Fiat recall it from the Alfa 147/156GTA at their cost and replace them with a 330mm setup?
Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269351
05/01/2007 22:47
05/01/2007 22:47
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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I did and found that the 57mm surface area is a bit larger than the 20VT brembos. I know all the theory you are talking about but I'm really happy with my single piston floating caliper.
The brembo conversion on 16VT isn't so easy believe me. Plus this setup looks absolutely standard.
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Re: 16VT vs. Stilo Abarth brakes
#269352
06/01/2007 00:47
06/01/2007 00:47
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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You need really big 4 pots to equal one single sliding caliper, look what bmw put on the M3. Ok not as sexy as 4 pots, but still work really well. What would be beneficial is a wider disc as john has mentioned, that why I didnt bother with 4 pots I had, disc was too thin. plus I have the bonus of smaller wheels.
Rich
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