Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist?

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Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272601 09/01/2007 18:55 09/01/2007 18:55
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Hello again, I've being thinking about the various options available in tuning my engine both with the wideband lambda being able to trigger events and the security features of the stock ECU which I'm reprogramming (fooling about) I've realised that what various ppl have been advocating over the years is indeed true: ECU safety features shouldn't be overriden unless absolutely necessary. So, I'm thinking that using a hybrid boost controler with two settings, or a GReddy Profec B or whatever boost controller means that there is no way I can run two different chips (which will only cost me a tenner or so to do) triggered from a simple button somewhere in the cabin. The reason is that on a conservative map/enrichment/boost setting I should be manually changing the boost controller settings as well (well can be done but hardly a smart solution, let alone that if somethings wrong, the engine wont be able to lower boost to compensate...). Now, getting the prefered boost settings per rpm step on the ECU is dead simple and quite effective, but the stock/crap 80quid EBV is the limiting factor. Is there something that can be triggered from the car's MAP sensor via the ECU signal and do a proper job at keeping boost where it should be (say 1.0bar at 2K, 1.45 at 4 and still 1.4 at 6K). So the key is re-integrating decision making and letting the ECU be the leader! Ideas? I remember JohnS saying something about working on a possible solution. cheers

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272602 09/01/2007 19:36 09/01/2007 19:36
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon paddy Enjoying the ride
paddy Enjoying the ride Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon	I'm using a perrin on my 20VT. It works fine with the stock ECU. Don't know if it will work with the 16VT, but if they use a similar system I don't see why not. More details here: http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/showflat.php?...true#Post198663

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272603 09/01/2007 19:41 09/01/2007 19:41
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,302 Sandhurst Begbie ex El Presidente
Begbie ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,302 Sandhurst	Vas I dont know if it has changed bewteen the integrale and the coupe, but the boost is down to a overboost duty cycle in the chip to allow various boost settings via the EBV. There has been a discussion recently on the integrale forum, saying if you get a stonger wategate (which you have) you can get better control of the turbo with a lower overboost duty cycle Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272604 09/01/2007 20:43 09/01/2007 20:43
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: I'm using a perrin on my 20VT. Sorry to say but perrin is just a regular solenoid and crap, altough it's less crap than the stock ebv. Get a solenoid from GM Part n° solenoid = 1997152 it has a special connector you might want to buy: Part n° = 12102747 Will cost you about 20€ instead of 60 for the perrin. p.s. a solenoid can also fail when it's in on-position so not that safe

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272605 09/01/2007 21:21 09/01/2007 21:21
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon paddy Enjoying the ride
paddy Enjoying the ride Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon	Fair enough - Although I'm pretty sure from the way my car behaves at higher boost that it is better than the stock one. I've taken it appart as well - it seems very well made and remarkably simple. I realy can't see how it would jam in the on position. The only thing that I think could fail would be the elctromagnetic coil burning out. If this happens the static magnet just pulls the shaft of metal back back to the open position.... Just out of intrest what kind of system to GM use?

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272606 09/01/2007 22:27 09/01/2007 22:27
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	the GM also uses a coil system. just fooling with you paddy, your perrin is ok but too expensive for a remarkably simple thingy. So yes, it's crap if you compare what you've paid for it. You'll find the GM solenoid being verry verry sensitive so yes it overboost on chips with agressive duty cycle maps but so great with an EBC. I have this one installed on my integrale, best 20€ ever spend on this car.

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272607 09/01/2007 22:45 09/01/2007 22:45
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	I have a Perrin now to do some tests on. Some tuners use them apparently I've been told since. When I find a willing 20VT guinea pig I can live map the boost on their ECU and use the perrin to stop the overboost but improve the spool like an aftermarket boost controller does.

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272608 09/01/2007 23:26 09/01/2007 23:26
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Vas I dont know if it has changed bewteen the integrale and the coupe, but the boost is down to a overboost duty cycle in the chip to allow various boost settings via the EBV. There has been a discussion recently on the integrale forum, saying if you get a stonger wategate (which you have) you can get better control of the turbo with a lower overboost duty cycle do you mean that I could regulate my wastegate to say 0.8bar and then the whatever EBV I use will only have to deal with the extra pressure? is that right? Then I could even configure it higher oooh! and say have a base boost of 0.95 bar or am I missing something? BTW, other than the target boost for each rev and the max boost, there is no way to configure from the ECU the way that the EBV reacts (to my knowledge at least!) cheers

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272609 09/01/2007 23:43 09/01/2007 23:43
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,302 Sandhurst Begbie ex El Presidente
Begbie ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,302 Sandhurst	Yes, thats right VAS, you can adjust the pre-load on the actuator to say 0.8bar then bring down the overboost cuty cycle to something less and have better control of your boost. I know with the integrale's, the boost is controlled via the EBV and is an overboost duty which gives you your higher boost of 0.6bar, so i think you need to look a bit more as if it's on the integrale, i dont think they are going to re-write the whole system? Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272610 10/01/2007 00:47 10/01/2007 00:47
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon paddy Enjoying the ride
paddy Enjoying the ride Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon	I have a 20VT with a Perrin already atttached Having said that since I've installed it, I don't really get any overboost it just hits the gtec2's 1.2 bar and sticks there until the turbo can't hold the boost at higher revs at which point it drops..

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272611 10/01/2007 00:59 10/01/2007 00:59
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	makes sense paddy, since the ebv is getting a signal from the ECU and the ECU decides what to do based on the MAP data it gets, I dont think I'll have to do any special editing in the EPROM to get another boost controller running with a higher base boost regulated by the wastegate... Will try and source this Ford item that dink mentions. Is it from a Cosworth then dink? cheers

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272612 10/01/2007 01:39 10/01/2007 01:39
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Will try and source this Ford item that dink mentions. Is it from a Cosworth then dink? cheers nope, comes from a US model, GMC cyclone me thinks. try www.rockauto.com, alot cheaper than ordering at GM 'ACDELCO' parts to order are: - PT374 (loom, yes you need it) $15,64 - 214474 (ebv) $15,19 adjusting preload can be done by rotating compressor housing slightly thus increasing rod angle (don't damage seals) or changing actuator rod by an adjustable threaded model (cut it off and weld threaded part on)

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272613 10/01/2007 02:52 10/01/2007 02:52
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	dink: how the hell did you find this??? fwiw, shipping works out more expensive than the parts!!! Anything else I could buy off that site to reduce my overall costs A narrowband lambda sensor or a fitting bung maybe??? An EGT probe? [my wastegate actuator can be regulated so no need for fancy tricks, I just wind it a bit more (it's already at 0.65bar) ]

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272614 10/01/2007 03:44 10/01/2007 03:44
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: dink: how the hell did you find this??? fwiw, shipping works out more expensive than the parts!!! Been living in the US for a while, and got to know some SUBARU owners over there. They were all using this stuff. Diden't really like the US tough, just good EBV's and V8 engines ... Maybe try a local GM dealer, just buy the EBV and see if you can connect it with a universal electrical connector or some soldering. Anyways, this EBV works different than the stock one wich only controls how much boost is discharged. It closes the waste-gate completey during spoolup, and only bleeds when needed, like a ball & spring boost controller. My delta I ECU seems to understand this EBV so i guess the coupé will do too as it's a lot smarther than an integrale

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272615 10/01/2007 04:38 10/01/2007 04:38
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	Quote: I have a 20VT with a Perrin already atttached Having said that since I've installed it, I don't really get any overboost it just hits the gtec2's 1.2 bar and sticks there until the turbo can't hold the boost at higher revs at which point it drops.. THe benefit is I could possibly make the boost ramp more agressively (less lag). The OE chip or GTec can't do this because it will just overboost massively with the stock EBV. Willing to also try the GM one...

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272616 10/01/2007 14:41 10/01/2007 14:41
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Maybe try a local GM dealer, just buy the EBV and see if you can connect it with a universal electrical connector or some soldering. bwahahahaha, nice one, GM dealer in Greece? No such thing mate, only got european (so to speak) ford stuff and that's all. No V8s, country is too small for them Quote: Anyways, this EBV works different than the stock one wich only controls how much boost is discharged. It closes the waste-gate completey during spoolup, and only bleeds when needed, like a ball & spring boost controller. My delta I ECU seems to understand this EBV so i guess the coupé will do too as it's a lot smarther than an integrale Hm, I've seen the maps and understand how the ECU works, _BUT_ I haven't got a clue on how it signals the EBV to open up. I'd have thought that once the target pressure is reached, the ECU signals the EBV to open and keeps the signal till the pressure is within limits. If that's the idea, then it should work. If otoh it uses some odd pulse system, god knows what's going to happen (well, it'll only cost me 50euro to figure out, wont it?) Cosmograph would be of help here I think! JohnS, Mr. Begbie will order them today I think! Any chance of a photo of yours without the cables on to see how odd the socket is dink? cheers

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272617 10/01/2007 15:29 10/01/2007 15:29
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,302 Sandhurst Begbie ex El Presidente
Begbie ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 12,302 Sandhurst	Vas, i will see if i can dig out some graph regarding the overboost duty cycle, or if JMA is reading this, would like to comment? But it is only graphs of the std curve and a modified one Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272618 10/01/2007 15:33 10/01/2007 15:33
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	cheers Begbie, haven't seen JMA posting in here for sometime now! Will PM him with a few Qs... cheers

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272619 10/01/2007 16:26 10/01/2007 16:26
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Quote: I have a 20VT with a Perrin already atttached Having said that since I've installed it, I don't really get any overboost it just hits the gtec2's 1.2 bar and sticks there until the turbo can't hold the boost at higher revs at which point it drops.. THe benefit is I could possibly make the boost ramp more agressively (less lag). The OE chip or GTec can't do this because it will just overboost massively with the stock EBV. Willing to also try the GM one... John, what does agressive boost ramp mean (in real life!) (comparing values of the stock 16VT chip VS the EVOCARs one on the turbo base/target pressure table and adding a 3rd column of what I understand as agressive...) 1.5K = 0.13 0.00 0.60 1.6K = 0.16 0.13 0.95 1.8K = 0.28 0.30 1.18 2.0K = 0.44 0.57 1.18 2.1K = 0.53 0.70 1.18 2.2K = 0.59 0.84 1.18 2.3K = 0.60 1.00 1.18 2.4K = 0.67 1.10 1.18 2.8K = 0.86 1.18 (and so on...) 3.2K = 0.87 1.18 3.6K = 0.79 1.18 4.0K = 0.70 1.18 4.6K = 0.63 1.18 5.4K = 0.65 1.18 6.0K = 0.68 1.13 6.5K = 0.53 0.78 Is that what you mean? V.

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? #272620 10/01/2007 16:58 10/01/2007 16:58
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	The EBV works on a pulse width modulation (PWM) system, so the 'duty' or 'set' (these are boost controller terms) is the time on during the cycle and the 'gain' is the duration of the cycle itslef. A slower cycle will give a more agressive ramp and is more likely to overboost but can also expose surging (compressor surge). If you look at chips like the Digitec on the 20VT it is very agressive and on a normal EBV that leads to a 1.7-2 bar boost spike before it settles at 1.4 bar. If you use an aftermarket solenoid then the spike will more or less go away on the Digitec but the boost will climb faster/earlier. So whereas the effect on a std EBV is undesireable, on an aftermarket solenoid like the Perrin it is beneficial. What I was proposing to build is an additional circuit that will manipulate the duty and gain such that the driver can alter the boost level and boost characteristics themselves BUT still retaining the base signal from the ECU. This would be pointless on the std EBV because it doesn't actually work that well, whereas with something like the Perrin (or the EBV I have on my Motec) it would be quite beneficial. Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: JohnS] #284660 29/01/2007 00:10 29/01/2007 00:10
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	found time to take some pics of that GM solenoid: http://www.lanciahf.eu/images/solenoid_GM.jpg connector: http://www.lanciahf.eu/images/fiche_solenoid.jpg

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: ] #284926 29/01/2007 14:50 29/01/2007 14:50
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	dink, just received mine and I'm about to install it. You happen to remember which pipe goes where? (I know it's just two options, but would be nice to get it right first time round $;\)$ ) cheers

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: JohnS] #284952 29/01/2007 15:39 29/01/2007 15:39
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon paddy Enjoying the ride
paddy Enjoying the ride Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 928 Wimbledon	Dink, is the GM one a 2 port solinoid?

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: paddy] #284962 29/01/2007 15:53 29/01/2007 15:53
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Originally Posted By: Vas dink, just received mine and I'm about to install it. You happen to remember which pipe goes where? (I know it's just two options, but would be nice to get it right first time round $;\)$ ) cheers Great stuff, let me know how it goes $\:\)$ The metal pipe is boost source, the plastic connection goes to the actuator. Originally Posted By: paddy Dink, is the GM one a 2 port solinoid? No, 3 port. On the left you can se a little foam filter, that's port n°3 You can remove it and connect the return pipe but mine just vents to atmosphere.

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: ] #285021 29/01/2007 17:19 29/01/2007 17:19
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	cheers, that's what I thought, as the #2 and #3 ports are next to each other. Will do it later on today and will report! I'm only worried that the resistance (or whatever else the ECU checks on the original EBV) is different and I may end up with the injector light on all the time...

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: ] #285037 29/01/2007 17:52 29/01/2007 17:52
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Originally Posted By: Vas cheers, that's what I thought, as the #2 and #3 ports are next to each other. Will do it later on today and will report! I'm only worried that the resistance (or whatever else the ECU checks on the original EBV) is different and I may end up with the injector light on all the time... I thought about that too mate ...resistance is exactly the same, about 23ohm, it wont ask more current and ecu is happy with it. Relax $\:D$

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: ] #285139 29/01/2007 20:12 29/01/2007 20:12
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	an being an electromagnet it's moving, it wont make any difference where I plug each cable (+) vs (-) I'm sure. will report in an hour or so!

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: ] #285257 29/01/2007 22:44 29/01/2007 22:44
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	OK, I can confirm that it worked fine! No lights on, Barnacle's widget seems happy, so all well. Now, did try it with the stock chip and then a bit with the puceabarth that JMA has given me. However, this chip is not lifting the pressure that much (a tiny bit compared to the stock one) so I edited a map for the turbo base pressure (upping it to 1.3bar by 4.000) and I'll try it on when my baby-sitting session is over at 9:00 $;\)$

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: ] #285354 30/01/2007 00:07 30/01/2007 00:07
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading JohnS I need some sleep
JohnS I need some sleep Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,158 Near Reading	the main thing is if it is a better EBV it will spool up better and overboost less

Re: Heavy duty/enhanced EBVs, do they exist? [Re: JohnS] #285425 30/01/2007 01:35 30/01/2007 01:35
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	John, seems like it's spooling better, thing is my clutch is slipping way too much to be able to do proper tests! And I'm just burning a higher base pressure map chip to test as the previous one was rather low (well v.close to stock) 1-3rd gear overboost seemed to last about a sec or two and then stable to the designated pressure. V.

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