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2x +400 bhp and some other #372150
08/06/2007 17:51
08/06/2007 17:51

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Hi,

Yesterday we had 5 Coupes in RR here in Finland.
Here are the results from top to bottom \:\) :

1. Coupe with TO4, 413 bhp / 489 Nm (361 lb-ft).
2. Mine with GT3071R, 408 bhp / 479 Nm (353 lb-ft).
3. Coupe with GT28RS, 333 bhp / 400 Nm (295 lb-ft).
4. Coupe with GT28R, 319 bhp / 470 Nm (347 lb-ft).
5. Coupe 16vt with chip, 255 bhp / 410 Nm (302 lb-ft).

And yes \:\) , all the cars with std internals. First and mine have C&B cams, otherwise nothing else done to the engines.
This time I really didn't took all out of the turbo, just becauseof the std internals. My goal was +400 bhp, I did three runs: 399 bhp, 408 bhp and 408 bhp. After first run I add some duty cycle % more to go above 400 bhp \:\) .
Fuelling was more or less overfuelling, EGT under 900 degC in all my runs.

- Jari -

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372161
08/06/2007 18:11
08/06/2007 18:11

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Did you run standard injectors? Any torque / bhp graphs?

How did the chap on the GT28R get such a monster torque figure?

Any graphs?

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372256
08/06/2007 19:45
08/06/2007 19:45
Joined: Dec 2005
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Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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Agree with Suba - on small turbos, the bhp number and torque figure (in lb-ft) tend to be about the same.

As soon as you start to use biger turbos, the power figure starts to rise above the torque figure.

My own GT28R power was something like 300bhp and 275 lb-ft

347 lb-ft is astonishing - I'd love to see the graphs


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Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: Nigel] #372482
09/06/2007 02:35
09/06/2007 02:35
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea Offline
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These guys aren't afraid to run some serious midrange boost ;\)


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Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: Flea] #372589
09/06/2007 08:24
09/06/2007 08:24

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I doubt he is running standard injectors, perhaps 16vt ones?

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372626
09/06/2007 15:10
09/06/2007 15:10
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,194
Göteborg, Sweden
Freddan72 Offline
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Great results Jari!
What chip are you and the others using?
Anyone using FMIC?
Downpipe size?

Cheers
Freddan


Coupé Fiat 20V Turbo Plus 1999, T19 Mitsubishi turbo
https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: Freddan72] #372656
09/06/2007 16:45
09/06/2007 16:45
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 989
Drakelow
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Drakelow
Jari ran std 20vt injectors, chip is a 'homebrew', increased FPR, custom jari built fmic & 3" exhaust

Jamie


She's alive!
Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: Jamiepm] #372697
09/06/2007 18:22
09/06/2007 18:22

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what do FRP stand for?

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372712
09/06/2007 18:43
09/06/2007 18:43

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GREAT RESULTS. How long you been running the car with that power if you don't mind me asking.

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372718
09/06/2007 18:54
09/06/2007 18:54

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 Originally Posted By: jordanjones1987
what do FRP stand for?


it is FPR: Fuel Pressure Regulator

\:\)

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372776
09/06/2007 20:43
09/06/2007 20:43

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no way the injoctors are standard, right?

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372843
09/06/2007 23:27
09/06/2007 23:27

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i managed 297 bhp from mine, but rob at pt recomended bigger injectors if i want more power! i cant beleive they are standard!

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #372999
10/06/2007 03:45
10/06/2007 03:45

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where do you get bigger injectors?

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373028
10/06/2007 04:15
10/06/2007 04:15
Joined: Dec 2005
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Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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my 20vt injectors were maxxed at 300bhp and 275 lb-ft. I needed 384cc to get my 400bhp

jordanjones - 16vt injectors are the most easily obtainable - they have the same pintel configuration and are easily available from the likes of Carlt

Make sure you have them sonic cleaned though


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Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: Nigel] #373074
10/06/2007 05:10
10/06/2007 05:10
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 742
Midlands
Easy Offline
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I think Jari is running 465cc injectors.

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: Easy] #373694
11/06/2007 13:13
11/06/2007 13:13

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Hi,

Busy weekend behind and now I have time to answer and update things \:\) .
Firstly, at the moment I use std injectors and 4 bar base fuel pressure.
I do have those 465cc injectors, but like Flea and Nigel have proved, proper program is very difficult to get. Mine goes very lean after couple hudred km's.

I'm a little bit suprised about the fuelling myself too. But wide band lambda and my EGT says otherwise \:\) .
Saturday I got an other prove of fuelling, we had a 1 mile top speed run in Finland. I managed to get 275 km/h (170.9 mph) in finnish line, all taken into the video \:\) .
Full throttle through out the gears and EGT stand under 960 degC, after gear change always way under 900 degC. Boost setting was 1.5 bar, highest value in Apexi AVC-R was 1.64 bar.
In video there is EGT, tacho, AVC-R with boost and rev's to be seen. Real speed can also be calculated through the rev's.
To the run itself I was very pleased, I couldn't find anything, which I could have done differently \:\) , like after every quarter mile run... \:\) .
And what the best \:\) , never got possibility to run flat out without worries of cops \:\) . And the running (landing)lane was also very wide and flat.

To the GT28R and torque, like Flea already wrote, the max. torque was achieved with 1.7 bar boost \:\) .
All these RR runs I also have in video. I haven't got any time to download the video to my PC, to check the boost levels through the runs.

Yes, I have power graph and I can post it to anyone who is interested in it. There is no secrets in my graph.... \:\) .

- Jari -

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373721
11/06/2007 14:11
11/06/2007 14:11

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Hi Jari - if you email the power graphs to me I can post them up? \:\) Will PM you my email.

That's a lot of boost on a GT28R - must be an animal mid range!

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373738
11/06/2007 14:43
11/06/2007 14:43

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Hi Jari, those are excellent results \:D \:D

What is incredibly interesting is that this power was achieved on standard internals

One of the most commonly asked questions is 'How much power can the standard internals run?", and I think Jari you have rewritten the rules here slightly! ;\)

The difficulty is that there have only been less than a handful of coupes that have pushed to 370bhp and beyond, myself included on standard internals, there have been a few failures as well \:\( , pretty much all of them Piston failures, and its not known whether pure boost pressure, and/or poor mapping excessive charge temperatures are to blame??

Thanks for sharing this with us, I'll post a link in tuning to this \:\)

Joe

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373746
11/06/2007 15:02
11/06/2007 15:02

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Hi Joe,

Thanks \:\) , I guess the real limits are very difficult to determine. There are so many things, which have some affects to the other.
I think that fuelling and detonation are the two worst "enemy" when reaching higher and higher \:\) .
For example without EGT I would have blown my engine months ago \:\) , that's for sure.
One Coupe here in Finland has ringland failure, but they could find the reason, det sensors were not working.

- Jari -

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373783
11/06/2007 15:59
11/06/2007 15:59

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was it that 261kmh ?

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373787
11/06/2007 16:03
11/06/2007 16:03

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Your ambient temps are a lot lower aswell tho Jari in Finland. Very interesting info tho!! \:D

Ross

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373803
11/06/2007 16:25
11/06/2007 16:25

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Yes, it was \:\) .

- Jari -

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #373806
11/06/2007 16:29
11/06/2007 16:29

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Hi Ross,

Normally yes, lot lower than in UK. But last Saturday it was quite hot for us too, some 26 - 29 degC, like whole last week it was pretty hot. I wonder what the power results could have been if the air temp would have been 10 deg lower, what we normally have \:\) , but anyway at least that amount of power is in use \:\) .

- Jari -

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #374157
12/06/2007 01:52
12/06/2007 01:52

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Charts please! I thought the FCCUK turbo experts thought that the GT28R compressor would be way outside of its efficiency island at 1.7bar, producing less power and lots of heat \:D

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #374178
12/06/2007 02:25
12/06/2007 02:25

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It will do at the top end... \:D

Ross

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #374186
12/06/2007 02:30
12/06/2007 02:30

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Damn Jari amazing results, im shocked about the std injectors being able to deliver enough fuel! I cracked a piston ring on my std internals, but perhaps seems caused by a dodgy injector...I need to turn on the boost dial a bit more now i think \:\) Can you send me those videos?;)

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #374380
12/06/2007 14:17
12/06/2007 14:17

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 Originally Posted By: davidub
Charts please! I thought the FCCUK turbo experts thought that the GT28R compressor would be way outside of its efficiency island at 1.7bar, producing less power and lots of heat \:D


You can run more mid range, i.e. 'overboost' but I dont think this is ideal on a GT28R, I guess it just depends on how far you want to push it!

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #375589
14/06/2007 01:24
14/06/2007 01:24

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Hi,

Suba has now our (mine, GT28RS, GT28R) graphs, if he manage, he will publish them... \:\) .

About the videos (DVD), I will make one where my 1/4 mile record, my RR (graph) and my Top Speed (261 km/h / 275 km/h) runs are. This DVD I have already promised to Jamie (Jamiepm), it won't be any "YouTube" version \:\) .

- Jari -

PS. Next weekend we have 1/4 mile run in very poor track, maybe the Hoosier will give some benefit to us. Or my clutch wil give up totally... \:\( .

Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: ] #375600
14/06/2007 01:36
14/06/2007 01:36
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,194
Göteborg, Sweden
Freddan72 Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Jari
Hi,

Suba has now our (mine, GT28RS, GT28R) graphs, if he manage, he will publish them... \:\) .

About the videos (DVD), I will make one where my 1/4 mile record, my RR (graph) and my Top Speed (261 km/h / 275 km/h) runs are. This DVD I have already promised to Jamie (Jamiepm), it won't be any "YouTube" version \:\) .

- Jari -

PS. Next weekend we have 1/4 mile run in very poor track, maybe the Hoosier will give some benefit to us. Or my clutch wil give up totally... \:\( .


Please send one DVD to Sweden \:\)


Coupé Fiat 20V Turbo Plus 1999, T19 Mitsubishi turbo
https://youtu.be/O9qrLj3Ap00 Now FCP Stage3!
Re: 2x +400 bhp and some other [Re: Freddan72] #377908
18/06/2007 12:55
18/06/2007 12:55

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Hi,

No new record \:\( , but clutch still fuctioning \:\) .
Because of last 1/4 mile, I was quite a worried of the clutch, so I started with 3.2 bar tire pressure and without pre-heating them. No grip in first nor in second \:\) , second run I dropped the tire pressure to 3 bar and pre-heating. Wheel spin with first gear, totally messed with the start (60ft 4.3s!! \:\) ). The third and last run that day, tire pressure 2.8 bar, pre-heating. First gear spining with smoking tires, but 60ft 2.2s and ET 13.1s. \:\)

Unluckily there were so many cars, that I couldn't manage to run anymore.
All in all now I know that with the Hoosier tires and very rough surface, we can play with tire pressure. I'm sure that with tire pressure near 2 bar would have been ideal to that track.
Okay next time with better luck.

My friend with other set of Hoosier burned his sinter metall clutch and it can't stand more than 1.3 bar boost. All gears spinning through if the boost is higher \:\( .

VERY IMPORTANT NOTIFICATION AND SAFETY WARNING:
I got very scary moment after first run, I finnished the run, speed +185 km/h (+115 mph) I started to brake and there was no bakes at all!!! Brake pedal was stone hard and I started to loose the speed with gears. Luckily runaway was long enough and in the end there was no problem with gear braking. In some point of braking I tried the brakes again and I guess left front wheel tried to brake and turned the car heavily to the left hand side. I thought that I broke something, drive train or some joint.
I came back to my place and explained it to my friend. He had similar experience in his run, but because of slipping clutch he didn't have speed more than 140 km/h (87 mph).

We started to think, what the hell can do such a thing and to both our cars.
After awhile of thinking, we found the explanation: ABS! Because our front tires are much bigger (DIA +2 cm) the ABS system went nuts and it thought that wheels are spinning and it blocked our brakes!
Then we took the fuse (60A) out and brakes were fine again.

But you can imagine the feeling in that speed and you can't find any brakes in your car, jesus!!

- Jari -


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