Rich, why doesn't he getter bigger fan for turbo cars as they aren't that expensive and it would surely save money by turning around cars quicker?

KMS and Emerald are my favorites. Both well priced, and both VERY capable.

KMS software is loosley based on DTA...the hardware i dont think is. KMS software is very easy to use, I find it visually easy to map as it has a bar chart fucnction, which is easy on the eye. The only thing I can say it lacks is a target feature, however so long as u keep an eye on the TPS values, this isnt a problem.
The only other thing with KMS is that they fire all four injectors at once, regardless of cam position. This isnt an issue for making power, but I have found they seem to have higher BSFC than a sequential equivalent. Theoretically emmision output will also be higher, but with clever mapping at MOT areas, i havnt had a problem.

What you'll find with most ecu's manufacturers software is that most have very good functions, but you often think if it had "X" it would be much better...where the next software has "x" but is missing something else! if you get me lol

Just stay away from Luminition hehe

Craig, sorry, just point out the obvious here, but you say firing 4 injectors? Unfortuantly, we are talking about the 5 cylinder / 20vt engines here, which is a different ball game all togther, hence the questions on it

yup sorry didnt see that, howver it isnt really a different ball game, the difference between the principals of batch and sequential on a 4 cyl is the same on a 5 cyl.

I think you do need to also look at the usability of the software and availability of mappers who are happy to use the ECU/software.
Even simple things like use of Bosch sensors and the 60-2 trigger wheel are not always available. One of the reasons why the Motec M48Pro is a frig on the 20VT is related to this.

Some of these ECUs are much better for track use than for road. Things like cold start compensation maps and extended duration acceleration compensation, variable throttle enrichment are things built into the std ECU but not always available easily on aftermarket ECUs. That means on some ECUs it is not possible to have the car run as well on the std ECU.

I looked at the Pectel P6t (I think?) but heard poor reports about the software and some mappers would not touch it. Price worked out the same as the Motec.

I went with the Motec because I liked the ECU software, capabilities and I trusted the mapper (as important as anything else IMHO). Also there was a base map available (although in the end it wasn't used) & loom which reduced the cost and complexity of setup. I also knew where to go to if my mapper stopped doing it or packed it in.

Last thing is make sure whoever sets it up knows what they're doing. Mentioning no names I know of someones tuner who killed two 20VT engines through incorrectly timing the trigger based on the trigger signal.

VEMS is a fairly cheap yet capable system, in the beginning it was based on MegaSquirt I think (original name were MS-AVR IIRC). Handles most engines in full sequential mode. I looked into it quite a lot while I still had my LE but gave up when I sold it.
Since the standard crank trigger is a 60-2 (std. Bosch) it shouldn't be to difficult to setup. I'm not sure on how the cam trigger looks though, perhaps someone here have a photo or so of the trigger on the exhaust cam?
http://www.vems.hu/

phase sensor on the cams uses a hall sensor

Yeah, but i was more thinking of how many trigger points there are and how they're positioned in regards to engine phase.
VR, Hall or optical sensor is less important, most ECU's can be adapted to use any type of trigger sensor.

the way the crank to trigger arrangement has been put together determines the difference - it is not arbitrary which is the whole basis of the Bosch system if I remember rightly. You can easily work it out mathematically taking the ref(cam wheel) as TDC and then the crank position relative to the missing teeth. As an example my ref to crank position is 88 degrees BTDC. But there are other ways round it can be if I remember rightly.

The std ECU takes the phase to crank and works out which way round it is before it allows the engine to fire. Thus the phase sensor and why when they get dirty the engine refuses to start.

I haven't looked at this in years literally so I may not have explained it very well.

Rich,

I've talked to Phil this morning - great chap to talk to. He thinks that the Pectel SQ6 would be a better option to the motec.

Still lots more research to do though....

Omex 700 Pro engine management is a good choice.I run it on the 147 turbo with the Race Logic system and its very good.never given any problems what so ever.

Here's the email I've had from OMEX:



Thank you for your interest in the Omex Technology product range. We have managed to relocate and save all stock so things could be much worse! The parts you will require for your proposed upgrade to Omex Engine Management are as follows;

part
number
retail
qty
total

ECU
OMEM710
£845.00
1
£845.00

Programming kit
OMEM071
£20.00
1
£20.00

Ready built harness
OMEM1530
£350.00
1
£350.00
estimate

or

Semi assembled harness
OMEM1503
£70.00
1
£70.00

2 pin m/t connector
OMEM4000
£3.50
9
£31.50

3 pin m/t connector
OMEM4001
£4.00
2
£8.00

Coil connector
?
£4.00
5
£20.00
estimate

All prices are GBP Sterling and are subject to VAT. Prices are subject to change without notice. E&OE.

The ECU will be supplied with a start-up map*. We have experience of running 5cyl engines, mainly Audi and Volvo rather than the Fiat, but the principles are the same! Where are you based? We have a few trusted tuners around the country who we know can map this engine with no problems from experience of their previous work.

I have quoted a couple of different options on the wiring harness as different options are easier depending on how much a stripped-out track car this is. The ready-built harness quote is an estimate and will vary dependent on length of cable runs and how many features you want to wire into the ECU. We will also need photographs of all components to check the connectors required if you choose the ready-built harness. The connectors quoted with the semi-assembled harness are a guess and I will again require photographs of the components to confirm. Your final option is one that was discussed on the forum you gave of using the semi-assembled harness and mating it to the standard wiring harness. This is quite possible, but wiring harness diagrams are rarely 100% correct with things like funny earth points often missed off, so do prepare yourself for potential difficulties if you choose this route! That said, it is often the easiest route if it is a full road car.

Are the ignition coils amplified or non-amplified? (we can often tell from how many pins there are on the wiring harness connector if you don’t know) We can run either but will need to know before shipping the ECU.

Traction control is based on engine acceleration per gear and so simply requires and input of road speed from your speedo to allow gear recognition. This feature is one that is constantly undergoing testing as although it has been proven already by our coders in WRC applications (it was originally developed for Subaru), we do not have a set of general-purpose values that will definitely work with all applications – you will have to do an amount of datalogging on your car to get it running (not difficult though as the ECU has inbuilt data storage!).

Launch control is very simple to install, simply requiring a momentary push-to-make switch on you steering wheel. The strategy allows you to build boost on the startline whilst keeping relatively low engine speed.

If you have any questions then please do not hesitate in contacting me.


Best regards


Andy Cornock

Omex Technology



http://www.omextechnology.co.uk

How does changing the ECU affect the CODE unit - presumably it will not allow the car to start? or can you simply remove the CODE unit all together

This also looks like a option - trying to get more details from them.

http://www.emeraldm3d.com/em_k3.html

I have mentioned already, Emerald dont support 5 cylinder yet

Oh and you can remove the code unit, but when i put the integrale ECU into mine, it sitll started, but the code light was always on

I've been told they do..... trying to get more info.

Read the S2 link i posted, then read through and see what they posted a week ago about 5 cylinder support with the emerald unit

Just spoke to Dave Walker - apparently 5 pots is fine as long as the car runs a distributer, rather than individual coils. ar*e. OK OK OK you were right.

The code unit is linked to the original ECU so changing the ECU will make the code box redundant. Yes that’s right you won’t have an immobiliser anymore however you can get some £££££ if you sell the ECU, code box and redkey

The main problem I found with the FIAT engine compared to the other 5 pots is that the crank sensor is set at 270BTDC as Audi have it at 90BTDC. The aftermarket ECU software will have to be able to use 270BTDC as an input (DTA P8 can only range from 0-170BTDC) meaning the timing will NEVER be correct. Changing the ignition firing order to start on the next cylinder WILL NOT be good enough as this will not give a true 5 cylinder crank signal. Trust me after having major electrical issues with trying to run DTA I know the Fiat electrical system inside out. Make sure that Omex or any other aftermarket ECU knows this is where the crank sensor sits as physically moving it after building an engine is lets just say impossible.

Suba have a chat with Barbz about the hell I’m going though in hindsight I would only use:

Motec or Autronic and possibly Omex anything else is Micky Mouse

The main things the ECU will need are:

1) Know that TDC is 270BTDC
2) Sequential injection on 5 pots
3) Sequential individual coils on 5 pots
4) Fuel compensation maps (riches/leans as you drive)
5) Ignition compensation maps (advances/retards as you drive)
6) At least 4 AUX’s
1 = cooling fan
2 = water injection/NOS
3 = cam variator
4 = turbo boost control
7) A decent way of idle control
8) Compatible with as main original sensors as possible

The only ECU that ticks all the boxes above are Motec and Autronic

Optional features to look out for are:
Anti-lag
Switch between maps
EGT compensation map
More AUX’s
Knock sensors (just for safety)
Immobiliser
More mappable points
Wideband lambda
Data logging
Traction control
Launch control
Exhaust backpressure compensation map


Talk to Mark Shead at http://www.madevelopments.com/ he is a dealer for Autronics and he also maps and will be at TOTB on Sunday.

Thanks for all that Jay. Did you ever look at Pectel?

just to throw in a spanner, my 2.4 is running fine on the OEM ECU, i only can manage 390hp ( max run, due to chargecooler choking the engine & the variator isn't working )

but this all runs on the BOSCH ECU, it does the biz & saves you a fortune.

Plus you keep all the safety features ( I hope ).

if you want to go as mad as JohnS, then you may need a motec, but to be honest, I will easily crack the 400hp barrier in a few weeks, when I fit a nice FMIC, SIP & replace that fcukking variator

in a nutshell, keep the OEM ECU.

oh, my idle is perfect ( bit lean, so runs a tad hot, but fine )

Taz - Who mapped it and what size injectors do you use?

Did you go with the larger diameter MAf sensor housing Taz? I remember you mentioning that previously.

Taz, sorry to say this but i think your gonna run into problems you mark my words.

mapped by PT ( I was very strict with them on my requirements ).

injectors are some green things ( Barbz supplied them ).

Why do reckon I am gonna run into trouble TJ ?

going by what Barbz told me about your ECU troubles, I seem lucky ( I guess ).....

just curious really

Yes, I have had major ECU problems myself but it's a learning curve. I'm not having a dig it's just that the reliability of the Bosch system has not really been proven to be at that level of tunning. Seems like the main problem mentioned earlier is the self learning system throws the map out after some time plus there maybe other factors that are not 100% yet. I think that you maybe pushing the original system too far and it may not work out in the end but I hope it does.

I have never experienced this learning function over the last 9 months although as the original guinea pig I can't say there haven't been problems.

440's I think then Taz. I'm really glad if the live map has worked on your car buddy, Maybe I'm just completely paranoid - but if I push the engine further then I want to know it's being managed properly. I'd rather do the job once and not have to keep going back with issues - all more time and money.

http://www.fueltech.com.br , from Brazil...

Programmable in real time, it supports Fivetech 5 cylinders, i use in my Marea 2.0 20V Turbo.