http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post221583

OK, so I have been reading through some of the historic posts of this great forum, trying to work out what to do next. I came across the above thread.

This guy is claiming 270BHP with basically the same mods as me (I have GTEC1, boost guage and PRV set to 1.2). The only difference is that he has a K&N filter and de-cat.

So with the theoretical 250BHP that I should be running at the moment (Haven't RR'd it yet) if I de cat and fit a K&N then I get +20BHP?????? Surely not???

Although he does mention a uni-chip. Is the GTEC1 programmed to work with de-cat and high flow air filter?? Thanks.

The de-cat will make it much more free-flowing, and add power. It'll break a standard turbo though.

I think proof was the main aspect missing from that post.

Ross

I think the fact it cost the owner 6k in 12 months, oh and blew up twice in under 5k should answer a few things.

The best thing to do if your in no rush is save about 1500-2000 sheets.Then keep an eye on the for sale section as all good mods are usually available once a month or more often.That way go for a fuel pump+mod,turbo,fmic,dv,apexi filter and sip,greddy,blueflame exhaust and a live map.Nice safe setup.Should see about 300bhp for that.

You can get around 250 with a few mods but i wouldnt think just by chipping you will get more than that on stock turbo.k and n filters are junk,avoid these and no matter what they say they dont increase bhp,just spool up.Better flow,more responsive.

Re above : spot on advice.

Ross

so if k&n air filters are junk what are best to fit to a 20vt

The group opinion and mine also is the apexi filter.Different products typically seem to suit cars differently.The best for the coupe imo for value and sound is the apexi.
Alot of the time the standard induction that the manufacturer fits is the best,as the air needs to be straight into the engine.If it resonates or ''swirls'' you loose low down torque as the air doesnt travel as quickly.
Anyone who has seen the mad setup on 106 gtis and accord
type r's will know what i mean.Sometimes the longest route is the best,especially for n/a setups.Turbo cars it isnt as important as its forced air.
However a sip and apexi really helps with the spoolup,sounds Ace too.

Which one is the apexi?

Ross

blitz sus filter all the way
sound is superb and the gains are good too
only down side is that they are a metal gauze filter and don't provide the best filtration if you live in a very very dry and dusty location...... this filter in the uk is perfect then LOL

The apexi we bought was one you use for 50k then put in the bin.Good filtration and no oil to fccuk up your afm.
But a good point above is if you live in a high dust environment then keep the filter stock.

ive seen a 20VT here do around 230 wheel hp with just a chip. that's about 260 hp on the crank; with stock exhaust, intake and turbo.

so yah i think 270 is do-able with exhaust, chip and intake.

redd

Why does everyone on here, go on about power. Its not power that makes your car quick, but torque. The more torque your car makes at the lowest revs, faster it will be. Fact !!
You can have a 370bhp Coupe with 320lbs of torque at 4000 revs. Then you can have a 400bhp Coupe with 350lbs of torque at 5000 revs. Which is the quicker car? Yep, the lower powered car. In a day to day driving situation, it will eat the 400bhp Coupe. Only at the top end will it be better. And how many owners drive at over 150mph every day??!! Think torque, not power.

Andy.

andy didnt you have a race with my mates type r which has about 150lbs of torque. and it was pretty even!

Yes i did, but you need to think of weight as well and how much torque is under the torque curve at all revs. The fact that the Honda holds on to its torque to higher revs, combined with weight, helps it to accelerate very well. And the fact the Honda has a third cam lobe that is engaged at high revs, that turns the lift and duration into fast road spec, helps the top end to increase power and torque. Vtec is a great innovation.
With a turbo engine, you have a low dynamic C/R off boost, so the car feels lethargic. When the boost comes on, the dynamic C/R increases dramatically because of boosted mass air velocity. If you can get that velocity at low revs, combined with optimum cam lift and duration, then the car will have a great spread of torque, and so will feel fast through the rev range.

Andy.

fair point

you can't really compare an na and turbo directly.

Andy, torque and bhp are not mutually exclusive therefore wherever you have more torque you will have more bhp. A car that has more low down torque will be a nicer, lazier drive but the car with more torque at the top end will quite simply have more bhp making it quicker all other variables equal. In your example a car with 350lbs/ft at 5000rpm will be faster no question

I think the answer the the original question is no.

Its not easy to achieve but it can be done fairly cheaply. Check cowboy's setup, as he made 278 bhp recently.

Ross

Fair point, but the 350lb at 5000 revs car will only be faster if you rev the nuts off it. The lower spec car, will accelerate quicker in every day driving. The bigger powered engine will be more peaky with slower spool up and so will be off boost more IMO.
As i said, its what is under the torque curve that counts.

Andy.

Unfortunately, you have just stated the obvious.

If coupes were limited to one very long gear, then yes the lowered powered one would be quicker.

Ross

Fast cars invariably need to be revved because that's where the power is! F1 cars wouldn't be up to much speed if they didn't have 18,000rpm redlines, the same with bikes and conversely turbo diesels require comparatively greater torque to make them go fast due to lower revs.

And yes, 270bhp really is easy to achieve

there's a simple flaw in this argument

Saying that a low-revving, high-torque Coupe will be faster than a high-revving, high power Coupe is utterly pointless.

I could counter that and say that a 1.4 turbo diesel would be faster than a Coupe as long as you stick to 2,000rpm.

Area under the torque curve is what points to "driveability", which is generally taken to mean the lack of need to change gear to keep in the power band.

Its entirely conceivable that a Coupe with a GT28R will have 100bhp more than me at 3,000 - 5,000 rpm.

However, which one is faster?

And in an attempt to bring this back on topic, a reliable 270bhp from a healthy 20vt is trivially easy.

you could get a standard car live mapped to 270bhp, but it will die as charge temps will be too high, however another car might only get 250bhp... its not as black and white as how much to get to x power. Look at all the various spec's of different cars and their different power outputs.

And as far as torque and compression ratios etc, not sure what you are trying to prove??? torque is important but you can not say one is better then the other as flea says, you generally don’t get one with out the other, your statements seem a bit irrelevant. And type r’s are renowned for their poor torque so not sure what you are proving their either??? also, there is only 100kg difference in weight and the carry onlt about 150lbft of torque compared to the 228 of the coupe, the coupe should beat it all round.

sorry nigel, must have been typing at the same time, but your fingers where quicker then mine...

If your car is serviced alright and healthy you'll get 260hp with just the chip (novitec anyway).

In this case it's safest NOT to go with any PRV or PBV, use your newly cleaned std EBV, and you'll be safe as milk mate.

I've currently got the following and I should be at about 270ish bhp(pending on the RR day in 2 weeks).

GTiR 0.8bar actuator
Pro Alloy FMIC
Pro Alloy SIP
Apexi Filter
Gtec2
Greddy Profec II
2.75 H&S Downpipe
Supersprint de-cat
Supersprint cat back exhaust
Walbro pump
Wiring mod
NGK plugs
Forge DV006

I have a problem in that I am not holding boost as I should be higher up the rev's, even after having new boost hoses everywhere(so I still don't know where the problem is!!), good compression etc. Because I am not holding the boost, I will probably not achieve the 270ish bhp I should be at, but the spec is capable of 270+bhp.

I'd just say that before you start spending money on tuning, make sure everything else is working perfectly or alot of money could be spent, thinking you will get good results, but you won't as you haven't done the basics.

Cheers,

Mark

I never mentioned low revving engine. I said what is under the torque curve!! That is what torque is available down low. Its so easy to make a high powered engine by bolting a big turbo on it. But it is how the torque is produced and the torque band. Going for high power usually means moving the torque band upwards. This means a more lethargic car from idle. [slower spool up]. I would want to look for a compromise between good low to medium revs torque and good top end power.

Andy.

Fair enough point on getting the compromise right. But your example:



Is plain wrong. The quicker car is the higher powered car. Unless both cars are left in gear and revved up to 4000 revs, the high powered car is quicker. If you're racing you're going to change down, turbo comes on song, high powered car disappears.

You say that the car is more lethargic from idle, but unless it's a standing start that doesn't matter as much. Obviously an incredibly laggy car is bad, and slow, but a car with decent spoolup will be fine.

it's a tricky one this and could go on for god dam years.
lol

Yeah.

We all know that i have the ideal setup!

Ross