Found these on my travels.....

http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/

Hi mate, can you treat me like your Nan & explain what it is does that my PA FMIC doesnt?

Chris

It basically does the same thing, just a different method of doing so.

It tries to cool the air but fails, it does flow very well though.

They actually work quite well at keeping a constant inlet temperature, they don't work quite as well as FMIC for cooling but still an improvement over an uprated Side mount.

I ran one for a few years and was very happy with it, fitting the FMIC increased lag but pulled harder higher up the revs.

I'd recommend one for a mild tuned coupe up to 280bhp.

Constantly high?



Did you do any temp testing on it? If so what did you come up with?
Why would you not recommend it for over 280bhp?

over 280 bhp it's just flowing too much air to be able to cool it as efficiently.

I`ve got one,would thoroughly recommend it,as the above says tho` not much good if going much above 300bhp,and does cool the air effectivly,did various tests with Graham L,both of us where suprised at how good it was

I temp tested mine and it constantly let heated air through it at 20'c above ambient, this was with no boost. There are no turbulators in the core to agitate the air and remove the heat from it, it's just straight through. I will be putting my air-air cooler back on, it may be a little bit more restrictive, but it cools the air better.

No not constantly high, it kept a steady cool temperature. Pro-Alloy did some measurement if I remember correctly and the Pace kit kept quite a good low temp.

Your chargecooler just sounds like a poor kit, the Pace item was designed for the coupe and it had turbulators in the core as well as waterways through the core - not just the jacket.

It becomes restrictive above 300BHP, this is from guys that have actually used the kit and swapped to a FMIC for a better less restrictive inlet path.

What kit were you using ?

The one that this topic is about (see first post):

http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/

I didn't pay his prices though, I imported one from the US, I pretty much knew I was taking a risk as I couldn't find any evidence that these things actually worked well, not even from the manufacturer, I just had to have a go and prove it myself, older and wiser now.....

Im sure Pace made one for the grale too, infact I've seen the kit on a grale at L&M, it was L&M that did the development work for it. Might be worth giving them a try if you still want to go down the chargecooling route ?

Thanks for the heads up, I've never been much of a fan of Pace products, the double pass FMIC they do for the Coupe is an appalling attempt at an intercooler!
The PWR item I have is on my road car, it's only pushing out about 300bhp, so I'll go back to the air-air unit, it's good enough for what I want.
Things have moved on a lot in the past year or so and my study of intercoolers is more or less complete, there has been a lot to learn.

There is nothing readily available on the market that is any good for an integrale so I designed my own for my track car - it works exceptionally well. There is some footage (and proof of how well it works) on Youtube somewhere if you are interested.

post it up chippy, everyone loves a 'grale

Oh go on then

Here's us at Donny:
http://s103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/Deltona_II/miscellaneous/?action=view¤t=DonnyOct07.jpg

Intercooler testing:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mYEyAaqBbd4

The two readouts are before and after the 'cooler, outside temp is 15-20'c. Standard cooler gets to 65'c when used hard.

Then just a bit of fun:
Chasing a 360 Challenge race car at Oulton:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=razb8V_VLjg

Blowing away two scoobies:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U3WCLh_F1P0

Didn't take much Chippy

Car sounds nice on the intercooler testing, but what are the values reading in as obvously it's not 'c

Having watched it again, it that 120.0'c im seeing and 31.1'c?

there are much better chargecoolers out there than that barrel chargecooler. !

Yeah that's right and yes, it is in degrees centigrade.
Why do you ask?

just because i thought i saw 0.120 and 0.310 so wasn't sure if i was seeing 'c there

best `U tube` i`ve watched in ages

Hi

Your problem then is 100% installation based. If you put the CC in the system and never even plumbed it up to any water system, then by simple logic, it cannot 'heat' ambient air flowing through it with no boost. Its just a 'lump of aluminium' per say...

If it is heating ambient air, then it can only be that the water flowing through it is way above ambient, and thus is a problem with the rest of your installtion (ie, rad, pump, tank, bleeding issues)

By simple logic, the core itself can't generate heat.

If you have any installtion with this unit, and you see more than 20 degrees C above ambient on boost (and up to 400CFM and 20psi of boost, sustained) then there is a problem with your installation that should be addressed.

As for saying there are no turbulators in the core, can you confirm it was a genuine PWR core and looked like this?

http://www.advancedvehicletuning.co.uk/pwrint.jpg

David
http://www.chargecooler.co.uk

Take what evidence you like from this gallery.

http://www.advancedvehicletuning.co.uk/C...tions/index.htm

David

Sorry, but my problems are 100% product based - it's useless.

There is nothing wrong with the installation, it has a bleed valve at the highest point, a Bosch pump (supplied by you) and a cooling radiator (pre-rad). It works - the water gets warm.

Concerning your evaluation of where the heat is coming from:

The heat is coming from the turbo, it is mounted on the hot exhaust manifold and has hot oil and water pumped through it, so even when not producing any boost the air passing through will pick up heat. To quote your site: http://www.advancedvehicletuning.co.uk/avtpwr.htm

"Typical outlet charge temps of only 10-135c above ambient"

I would say I am well within these parameters.

I contacted an outlet for PWR and asked them for figures they said:

"PWR is very difficult to get product data out of, I have been trying for years. They have performance curve charts and research data, but even though I have been promised all of this info, I have never received it. I have tried several different sources within PWR and gotten very little to no help.

Over the years, this is what I have been able to squeeze out of them.

Maximum operating psi - 45

Rated CFM for 6" Intercooler - 920

Rated HP for 6" Intercooler - 720 HP

On the 6" X 10" Intercooler, with a boost pressure of 7 psi, and a 183 degree air charge going into the Intercooler, the air leaving the Intercooler is 97 degrees. No data on the 6" X 6".

1 psi pressure drop at 8 psi."


Now I think you will agree that a near-on 50% drop in temps isn't very good, also the fact that they won't give any (apart from this snippet) data away smells of something fishy. I can get an inlet temp of 60'c when on full prolonged boost, this figures with the 50% drop they quote.

Turbulators:
These go at right angles to the flow of air, they are designed to agitate and slow the air so it gives up its heat, a barrel cooler has non of these, it is all flow and not much cooling. It stands to reason, you cannot pass air through a straight tube and expect it to be cooled.

As for the pictures on your site, well, anyone can post up nice pictures, it doesn't prove that the product works, I can post a pic of mine, it doesn't mean I am happy. I notice Norris designs (pictured on your site) don't have a barrel cooler anymore:
http://www.norrisdesigns.com/demo9.asp

Take a look at this link, about 3/4 of the way down there is a comparison of cores, it seems that PWR are using an oil cooling core in their air coolers....

Hi

Sorry, that is a typo on my site. Thanks for making me aware of it. I should read 10-25C.

The reason why its an installtion problem is (a) as per the point I made above that it cannot heat ambient air, and (b) I have numerous customer testimonials and test figures, for these systems.

You have just said in your own words - the water gets warm.

So how is that a fault of the core?

By that very statement, if the water is getting warm, then we can say the core is doing a very good job of removing heat from the charge (hence how can the water get warm) and likewise if it is staying warm, then logically we can say the rest of your system is not doing a very good job of keeping the water cool.

Hence installation.

Ref, whether Norris is currently using the core or not, there are faster and more powerful similar cars shown on the gallery.

Cheers

David

Even on my own car, which runs near 70-80 degrees engine bay temperatures, and I personally use a 4x10 core, with my prerad, fan, pump, tank etc, I run just over 1 bar of boost, and nearly maxing out this core.

I personally see nothing over 20 degrees over ambient, even on sustained use, and no heat soak issues, and this is with a very hot engine bay (this is a rear engined turbo car)

If I can acheive these results, as can other customers, there is no reason that you can't.

Thanks

David

Do you have a photo of your installation?

Just to add some "other" detail.

Its not the first time, that a product which is supposedly "proven use" on other cars, hasn't been suitable for the coupe.

I for instance changed from a evo 6 intercooler with a hole in it, to a brand new forge motorsport evo 6 upgraded intercooler (supposedly). I done back to back tests (within a few days and very similar ambient temps) and the brand new forge item was worse than my original evo6 with the hole in it.

Replaced with a repaired evo 6 and the temps were better. I contacted forge. They agreed a full refund and said they would advise anyone against fitting this intercooler on a fiat coupe.

They didn't come on here and argue there case. They accepted the figures and refunded.

Ross

Yes, that is because there is no argument. If you had back to back tests on things such as an intercooler, which in theory is 'idiot' proof to install and measure, then there can be no debate.

With a CC installation, there are so many variables, and if the installer obviously says that the water is 'too hot' then that is not a fault with the core. This is the thing that makes the water hot in the first place. Its not its job to cool it back down again. If you had a poor radiator system, and the water wasn't getting hot either, and you had poor charge temps, then there would be a problem.

Also, the CC doesn't know what car it is fitted to. All the CC 'knows' is that there is a turbo one end, and an engine the other. It makes no difference what car it is fitted to (within reason - as long as you are not trying to demand from the core way more from its specifications) other than where other parts are fitted (such as the pre-rad, pump, tank) - which still all points to 'installation'

For all we know it can come down to something as the pump was wired round in reverse..

Thanks

David

Logically, if that intercooler was the exact same fitment as the one you had, and nothing physically on the car had changed (ie air flow to the intercooler) then that would point to the fact the core would be worse than a standard EVO intercooler on ANY car/application as a direct replacement.

Thanks

David