Er, what core am I using?

You could be running the biggest one I do for all it matters, your post compressor temps are 40c higher than they should be, so you would still be around 20c above ambient.

You've just told me my core is maxing out, now it isn't, which is it to be?

So why does my other car in the other Youtube clip produce 360bhp (and that was on a hot RR with a boost leak) with the same turbo? Want to see the power chart from a reputable RR company?

I can only repeat:
Boost figures have nothing to do with what we are discussing, it's actual temp in and out that counts.

I think I had better get busy with another temp sensor and my camera....

Gralecoupe - I've just watched your swirlpot video - i reckon you have an air problem

the coolant is coming through in surges - every three or four seconds - its ebbing and flowing

It should be a constant flow - like yours is when its quiet, just before it starts making splashy noises - you can also hear the pump changing tone - a classic symptom of an airlock (I know, I had lots of trouble with air in my system)

My point is, whatever core you are running, 120 post compressor is over hot for 300bhp.

And my second point will be, if you believe a 50 trim T3 can make 360bhp (even your 300bhp is doubtful) then you will be opening yourself up for a whole can of worms.

I don't need to see the plot. If you tell me its 360bhp, and its on a 50 trim, then its BS.

Cheers

Dave

Pal, I can't have this 'discussion' with you if you know nothing about turbos, efficiency and compressor maps.

The more boost you run, the higher the temps get - and then at even the same boost level, at higher lb/min, the higher the temps get...

You are running high boost and high lb/min = high temps = what your seeing, 120c...

Cheers

Dave

60 degrees max is actually a pretty damn good figure considering what your doing...

I doubt thats water flowing round the core, its more like sweat!

Cheers

Dave

Yeah, your right I'm no expert on speccing turbos and understanding compressor maps - I wouldn't pretend to be, but I don't think you are either. You don't know anything about the spec of my engine and you haven't asked! There are more people around then me who have seen over 300 bhp with this turbo - it's a fair size, it has to be it's from a homologated rally car and you don't win rallies with a slow car.
What about VE?
The RR (Nobles, Chester) had just been freshly recalibrated due to flooding and my car made the same power but more torque than the modded Mitsi Evo he'd just done, the mapper was surprised and so was I... It's not just talk either, I prove it on trackdays and I'm no great driver.

Anyhow, back on topic....

Why do you keep telling me what you think I know. What if I told you I know EVERYTHING about turbochargers...

My point is, If you knew about turbos, you would realise what engine it is connected to is irrelevant.

A 50 Trim T3 compressor can flow 27lbs of airflow max, before it goes supersonic. It makes no difference if I fit it to an A-series Mini engine, your engine, or a 3l V10 F10 engine, it will only flow 27lb/min max. It also matters not how fast I spin that compressor, and what boost I squeeze out of it (well it does, as at a point it will actually lose power, or simply fall apart)

Rule of thumb is you will produce 10bhp for every lb/min of airflow on automotive fuel. This is not my thumb, this is Mr I.Newtons thumb...

Cheers

David

Well spotted Nigel, this surging has been bothering me for some while, the water still seems to be circulating though which mystifies me. What I will do is empty some more out, try it again and see if I can tell what exactly is happening.

There is a white plastic elbow on the inlet which goes blue (because of the coolant colour) when the circuit is running.

IF it does have an airlock I think I know where it may be (all this high energy 'debating' has stirred up my few brain cells). The core is mounted at 45', but 'cos I have to run counter-current the intake is at the upper part and the outlet at the bottom, (this is not good IMO) maybe air is collecting at the top inlet, or in the top of the CC somewhere.

The questions are how will I clear any airlocks? I'm wondering about reversing the pump to see if that clears it

End of the day it matters not, as whether you have a turbo, a set of bellows or a huge dinosaur blowing on your intake, if you are recording high 120c post comp (or lungs;)) temperatures, then then is the temperature, which is very high, and hence why it relates to a high post CC temperature.

Put 30% extra heat in, then expect to get near the same extra out.

Cheers

Dave

Its quite easy to get an airlock. If the systems is noisy i.e sloshing noises then there is definately air in the system.

To remove airlocks on my CC I remove it from the induction path, turn on pump and rotate the CC so the oulet it facing up, but the reservoir is still higher.

Chris

The easiest way is to have a header tank at the highest point, but yes the tank needs to be before the cold water inlet, and if this is lower than the hot out, then it will never bleed correctly. You can't force air to go down then up.

Cheers

Dave

What sort of header tank are you running? System pic, please!

Cheers

Dave

Just a warning to gralecoupe and chargecooler, you are both starting to get a bit close to the slanging match at each other. Keep it nice, keep it sensible and do no under estimate each others knowledge on various subjects.

Keep it on track, else i will have to close this thread and you will have to resort to PM's to each other, which would be a shame, as there is some very good knowledge creeping out here.

So both take a time out, relax, it's nearly midnight. Come back with fresh heads and ignore all of the above that has been said and try to find some common knowledge that everyone can listen / share.

Merci

I just want a bloody picture! I could see if anything is wrong at a glance and saved 4 pages..

Now Im confused..

Ive just watched the second 360bhp video.

I have a couple of questions, 1st is what speed can the car do in the top of 2nd gear..

..but the main one is what type/brand of temperature sensors are you using to record this...?

The top one is chargetemp before intercooler. When you come on boost in first gear, and you said it was 1.5 or 1.7 bar etc, the temperature only rises 1 degree, and even when at the top of second, the temperature has only risen like 3 degrees. This is PRE-INTERCOOLER! Your temps should shoot right up almost instantly. The moment you compress air, temperatures shoot right up.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mYEyAaqBbd4

Hence why if you get a bicycle pump on a bike tyre, give it a few pumps and feel how it gets to over 40c damn quick, and this is a plastic pump not even having to hold positive pressure...

Cheers

Dave

EDIT : Those readings are no good. At 87c you back off, and the temps are still increasing, going up to 101 for the next 6 seconds..! This is too slow sampling, and whatever probe you are using is absorbing and retaining heat, or the other possibility is your probe is touching a metal intake pipe that is retaining heat and transmitting it back to the probe..

You don't, I can see that. You can't understand how I have good power from mine.




This isn't quite right.
If you modify an engine properly it will give more power. When you measure boost pressure at the guage on the dash you are measuring a restriction aswell as what the turbo is producing, release the restriction (by modifying the engine) and the power goes up. True, a turbo should be sized correctly to the engine, but there is a great deal of leaway either side.
I'm not claiming that my turbo is correctly matched, I know I am pushing it to its limits at 360, but not at 300. The trackcar at 360 was a test to see if various components work, they do, the turbo is now too small, but it still does the job, I never invisaged it would go so far.




What about spending your time trying to see if I have any problems with my CC system? You asked for pics and have now ignored them, I take it everything is ok then?

What pics?

No, like I said, if it maxes out at 27lb/s, then it makes no difference what engine it is pushing. If I had a 1000bhp F1 car, and fitted a 27lb compressor in the inlet tract, then it will make 270bhp thereabouts.

If you car honestly made 360bhp, then its not running a 50 trim T3 compressor.

Cheers

Dave

Goodnight, more tomorrow, well maybe, I've got to go back to work...

Your right, the thermocouple and counter is slow, it won't jump to a figure, but counts up logically, it still gives a good idea though regardless.
I'll see if I can get you some more piccys, will some sort of flow diagram do?

I havent seen any pics yet? Have you got any of the engine bay?

Pictures? PAGE 12.

F@cKK me, go to bed!!!

WTF, this thread is only 5 pages long?

EDIT : ahh, found it. Let me have a look .Cheers

That is the WORST installation I have ever witnessed with this gear, ever.

I mean it, ever.

Cheers

David

Come tommorrow, Im gonna tell you what to do, and you can watch your temps plummet

G'Night!

Dave

I just want Dave to make me a Chargecooler!

He doesn't make them, he stocks them.

http://www.pwr.com.au/coolers_ltoa.html

We'll see.
The install isn't so bad, it looks better in real life. You can't see in the pics what I have to work with - if you could you wouldn't be saying that. The engine bay is exceptionally cramped and the way I have done it makes it look original, for me this was important - it's no cheap car and I didn't want to chop and change a load of stuff. Don't be so sure when you don't know what you have to work with yet.
The turbo is low down at the front, the TB high at the top and the entry for it points down, so the CC more or less connects the two, I had to mount it at 45', there is no room for it to go horizontal which probably would have been ideal.

The problem has been that the CC is very long compared to other types, some other guys have had good results from utilising Lotus CCs because they are far more compact

If we can't make it perform by just working with what I have within the parameters above then I will have to go back to air cooled - believe me, it's been put like it is for a reason, but fair enough, see what you can come up with.

Gralecoupe - having heard your explanation of the swirl pot gurgling noise (inlet at the bottom, outlet at the top) I'm certain that this is your problem

The pump is pushing water up the inclined core until it reaches the outlet, which then "slurps" some coolant, which then drops back down the core.

Quite simply, you are drastically reducing the effciency of the core in two ways

1) part of it is filled with air, rather than coolant

2) what IS in the core isn't getting out

No2 would explain the point that you hit us with 5 pages ago - the core is heating up your coolant (however, its almost certainly not the fault of the core - ANY CC core will warm up if the coolant isn't circulating properly.

For a week or so after my Pace install, I effectively had a ChargeHEATER, as I had so much air in the system.

PS - is the pump pushing coolant into the core, or pulling it out? (ie what is the sequence of components?) IIRC, the pump should be before the core, not after it (although technically, its just a circulation, so it shouldn't matter) the only REALY important bit is that the pump should be at the lowest point of the install.