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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#500857
11/12/2007 22:06
11/12/2007 22:06
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#500872
11/12/2007 22:41
11/12/2007 22:41
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295 Sandhurst
Begbie
Ex El Presidente
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Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
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for 400 ps, 650cc should do the job perfectly on OEM fuel pump. Anything more, you'll need to go for 9oo - 1.ooo cc just to be sure This is for a 16vt not a 20vt
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: Nigel]
#501289
12/12/2007 15:17
12/12/2007 15:17
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djsly
Unregistered
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djsly
Unregistered
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Not sure where you've got your data, but its seriously inaccurate
I'm running over 400 bhp on 384cc injectors, with a 255 l/h pump
I'm not convinced that the OEM pump could ever allow 400bhp, as regardless of the injector size, it just can't deliver enough fuel to the rail. huh. that's the first time I heard of somebody driving more than 330ps on OEM injectors. Maybe if you have a 20vt. A friedn of mine drove 330 ps setup on OEM injectors and OEM pump and at 6.000 rpm injectors were almost on 100% cycle ! Pump supplys fuel with 3,5 bar pressure and with my 650cc injectors it will do just fine for 450 PS. On 7.000 rpm injectors will be on almost 100% cycle.
Last edited by djsly; 12/12/2007 15:42.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#501291
12/12/2007 15:19
12/12/2007 15:19
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djsly
Unregistered
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djsly
Unregistered
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yes begbie, i'm talking about 16vt engine.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#508256
25/12/2007 15:55
25/12/2007 15:55
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581 Taiwan
DavidL
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581
Taiwan
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Hi, Just to comment on the fuel pressure. I've tested on flow racks and guess what, higher pressure does give you a finer spray (finer fuel particle), so this should give you a better fuel economy. However, if you go beyond the recommended working pressure of the injector(varies from injector to injector), it just stop all together as the fuel pressure pressing down the pintle is way too great for the energized solenoid-pintle to over come. Furthermore, another problem is that if you increase the pressure higher than recommended, this would mean that you will need to increase the pulse width or duty cycle at higher revs as the injector reacts slower (with the higher fuel pressure holding the pintle shut) versus when it's working under the normal fuel pressure. With that said, it is best to see how injectors perform under the intended fuel pressure, rather than assuming that higher is better
Last edited by DavidL; 25/12/2007 15:56.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: JohnS]
#509255
28/12/2007 09:39
28/12/2007 09:39
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580 Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia
My life on the forum
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My life on the forum
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,580
Melbourne, Australia
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400cc/min but WHY do you want a 3 bar FPR? Fuel atomises better at higher pressures so as long as the injectors are able to continue to provide a consistent flow at the higher pressure then its all good. I wouldn't go above 4 bar base pressure though just because depending on which Walbro 255lph pump you have you might start to get near to the capacity of that. A friend of mine is a Bosch agent. He also sells Walbro etc. I was going to buy a Walbro 255 but he says they are not recommended for high pressure. They have a pressure relief valve at around 60 psi and they wont flow anywhere near their raited output at pressures close to 60psi anyway. There maybe some exceptions but he said pretty much all internal pumps are similar, they dont like high pressure.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: Scuderia]
#509258
28/12/2007 12:28
28/12/2007 12:28
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581 Taiwan
DavidL
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581
Taiwan
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IIRC, the pressure relieve valve of the oe pump work at 7.5 bar. For those using uprated fuel pump and FPR, it's best to have the fueling on the RR as the FPR is a manifold reference type, so if you are using a 4 Bar FPR and a boost level of 1.5 BAR, this means the actual pressure at the fuel rail is 4+1.5= 5.5 BAR!!! So, if, like what Scruderia said, that some of the fuel pumps are not designed to work under high pressure, then you better off with the standard pump. Let's not forget that 140L/hr means 2333cc/min with the oe pump and that a phased sequential injection means that at best, only 2-3 injectors will be firing together at any one point. And if the OE injectors are rated at 330cc/min, you've got more than enough for a little more squirt. Having said that however, if the pump is old and the supplied voltage drops, then that's a different story.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: DavidL]
#509259
28/12/2007 12:41
28/12/2007 12:41
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Fergie
Unregistered
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Fergie
Unregistered
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Nigel, wouldn't your performance head mean u need less fuel to make more power?
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#509401
28/12/2007 19:00
28/12/2007 19:00
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avinash
Unregistered
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avinash
Unregistered
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i can get Bosch 0280150558 Green Top fuel injectors 440cc for coupe 20v turbo 35pound per piece incuding delievery.I got other size to and i can get very cheap.I have siemens,bosch,rc,delphi and more.ready stock.tq
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: DavidL]
#512940
03/01/2008 22:43
03/01/2008 22:43
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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IIRC, the pressure relieve valve of the oe pump work at 7.5 bar. For those using uprated fuel pump and FPR, it's best to have the fueling on the RR as the FPR is a manifold reference type, so if you are using a 4 Bar FPR and a boost level of 1.5 BAR, this means the actual pressure at the fuel rail is 4+1.5= 5.5 BAR!!! So, if, like what Scruderia said, that some of the fuel pumps are not designed to work under high pressure, then you better off with the standard pump. Let's not forget that 140L/hr means 2333cc/min with the oe pump and that a phased sequential injection means that at best, only 2-3 injectors will be firing together at any one point. And if the OE injectors are rated at 330cc/min, you've got more than enough for a little more squirt. Having said that however, if the pump is old and the supplied voltage drops, then that's a different story. This is why you don't just need a walbro 255lph but you need the high pressure one as well
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: JohnS]
#530548
28/01/2008 00:54
28/01/2008 00:54
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Diego
Unregistered
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Diego
Unregistered
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Hi you guys,
I was reading about the Siemens Deka that suppose to spray better (300kPa) and with a better atomization fuel we would have sort of economy and some more power with a right air-intake and mapped ECU.
My question is: would the Bosch ECU (my car is a Marea 20v not turbo) support 12,5 ohms since the original Bosch injector is 15,9? They fit normally? Plug & play? Was reading your forum for a while and found really nice.
Diego
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#530730
28/01/2008 03:51
28/01/2008 03:51
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
Unregistered
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Diego,
I'm running Siemens DEKA injectors without any problems on my 16VT. Considering that 16VT-20VT injectors are interchangeable it is safe to assume that the DEKA will work on your ECU.
V.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#530806
28/01/2008 05:46
28/01/2008 05:46
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Diego
Unregistered
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Diego
Unregistered
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Diego,
I'm running Siemens DEKA injectors without any problems on my 16VT. Considering that 16VT-20VT injectors are interchangeable it is safe to assume that the DEKA will work on your ECU.
V. Thanks a lot Vas, I really apreciate Diego
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#530817
28/01/2008 07:32
28/01/2008 07:32
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Diego
Unregistered
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Diego
Unregistered
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forgot to ask wich one you' re using Vas.... To my purpose (not turbo)I was thinking of this one: 330cc - Mini S Stock replacement part Siemens Deka 1521390 2002-2005 Mini S Any other place I can found it beside here? http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsMODS.aspI guess this would be oversizes....... or not? http://www.racetronix.com/M145FM.htmldifficult to find on the Net and nearly impossible here in Brazil
Last edited by Diego; 28/01/2008 07:32.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#534324
02/02/2008 16:34
02/02/2008 16:34
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Diego
Unregistered
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Diego
Unregistered
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Well just found out that the Mini injector wont fit .....too short
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#534343
02/02/2008 17:18
02/02/2008 17:18
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Lars_DK
Unregistered
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Lars_DK
Unregistered
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I just bought 5 Bosch 440cc injectors from sprayitracing.com , but before i asked for the pressure and spray pattern, and they are rated at 3 bar (but can take up to 7 bar) and 10 degree spray angle on each side = total 20 degrees - like JohnS said it should be. I had it shipped from the US to Denmark, and it only took about 3 days! So excellent service, no worries there...
Last edited by Lars_DK; 02/02/2008 17:52.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#535047
03/02/2008 23:48
03/02/2008 23:48
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
Unregistered
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sorry, just logged on, yep I used sprayitracing.com, fast communication, excellent service, injectors were in Greece in 4days, so I'd definitely recommend them! Bl@@dy cheap as well V.
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#537447
07/02/2008 12:31
07/02/2008 12:31
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
Unregistered
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or get them s/h off a 16vt...
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#537676
07/02/2008 20:20
07/02/2008 20:20
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Squid
Unregistered
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Squid
Unregistered
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Or you could try these - Genesis twin spay injectors They are $68.75 for a set of 4, so 5 sets and we can do 4 coupe engines. Works out at around £45 for a set.
Last edited by Squid; 07/02/2008 20:21. Reason: Spelling
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: ]
#537690
07/02/2008 20:42
07/02/2008 20:42
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158 Near Reading
JohnS
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,158
Near Reading
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just look at the workshop manual and figure out which spray pattern matches the standard pattern the best, or ask them if they have any technical know-how.
The risk with the wrong angle is that you end up spraying the wall of the cylinder head or the port divider which will lose you power. For me I have to accept that as I would rather lose 20BHP (which I probably am doing) and have injectors that can support a low frequency for idle than have ones at the right angle that mean the car runs lumpily at low rpm, but you don't have that problem....!
Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: JohnS]
#537814
07/02/2008 23:53
07/02/2008 23:53
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Message from http://www.usrallyteam.com"J, we have the injector you're looking for, but I can only sell them in sets of 4. The alternative is a Siemens 380cc which has the exact dimensions you've shared. Instead of firing 2x cones it delivers a single wide one. We use these most often in the VW/Audi 1.8T engines. They also came from the factory with injectors that spray twin cones. Actually, that's not completely true as the original 1.8T used a single wide cone and the later models had the twin spray. Anyway, the point is that we can supply the Siemens. If you're interested to go in that direction, please let me know." @ JohnS I have read the info on that data book and its says “two splits of 10 degrees” but I am unsure if this description matches that: http://www.racetronix.com/621037.htmlWhich ones do you think I should get?
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Re: Injectors again - What size and where from?
[Re: Flea]
#538136
08/02/2008 15:37
08/02/2008 15:37
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Squid
Unregistered
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Squid
Unregistered
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Flea, It sounds like per set to me! "Genesis injector set for all 16v and 1.8T engines"
J, I would say go for the twin spray type. I need a set as well, so if we buy 5 sets we just have to find two other takers for the remaining 10 injectors.
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