Leighton is dong mine this Saturday, can't wait

Nigel,

You should really invest in a wideband lambda, I spent a tad more than I wanted, but ended up with a excellent Stack item, let's just say the PT map I had, is fcuked & gone well wayward.

As the battery & a dam lot else is out of the car at the mo , i'll be interested to see how quickly the cold start map goes off the boil, I am keen to get mine with Flea before christmas ( just got the pro-alloy, gearbox cooler ( almost fitted ) & a few other mods to sort & it's near damn perfect.....

oh, I use a full 3" true longlife system including a very higflow race CAT from GGR, that was fitted, it doesn't restrict the coop, and even with 3 silencers, it's boomy a bit at 3k, but it'll get better once the coop stops running so rich, as the carbon is blocking up the sound deadening

I reckon EVERYONE with a PT map should get their car on a the rollers for a fuelling check. There is most definitely a trend developing here...

I'd like to see evidence of one PT map that does have good fuelling a few months down the line?

This shouldn't apply to Unichip remaps as the initial ECU maps are left well alone.

My PT map has no issues at all - however they mapped it on a unichip rather than a live map.

I will chuck in the wideband in a few weeks and check if my map has wondered i'm sure it's fine, but it did wonder on the previous map but that may be down to the map not being 100% finished. If not Flea might have a new customer

Nigel have you sorted the missing yet? I have ordered parts to do my loom, might do a guide with pics when they arrive on Monday.

No - its still misfiring under heavy boost. Still trying to track down the cause.

I'm considering more off-the-wall possibilities now. How about the earthing point under the coilpack cover? How about the main earth for the engine? I assume if the coilpack supply wasn't earthed well, it would misbehave?

I have a serious test for the car next week - 330 mile round trip on Tuesday, followed by a 540 mile round trip on Wednesday. Basically, the car will do nearly 1,000 miles in three days, so if the ECU is going to learn or drift, it will do it then.

fuel bill will be high this month

just out of interest Nige, when did you do a compression test? Can you do one just to see how it is at the mo? I had a miss fire once, found out that blown head gasket and leaking coolant was to blame - would have never known car still went ok.

rich

Leighton did one when he had the car last week - no lower than 152 - max 160

does it feel like a slight stutter or does it feel like the car is pulling back?

John - its definitely a very light stutter - quite a "fluffy" sound - not like a rev limiter misfire. The car does hesitate slightly, but not really holding back (as it would if the fuelling had gone lean)

Its ALWAYS accompanied by clouds of smoke

I've since found that it can be driven through quite easily - it would appear to only happpen at peak boost

What rpms do these misfires occur at?

somewhere around 4,500 - 5,500 - it can be different depending on which gear I'm in. The higher the gear, the lower the rpm that the misfire happens

Sounds like your blowing your spark out at high boost Nigel. Are there any uprated coils that will fit the coupe ?

So what causes the spark to be blown out? I'm struggling to get my head around this. It is accepted that it's the high boost that does it (evidence would certainly back that up). Wouldn't the engine be sucking in more air (and therefore more air flow) at higher rpms, irrespective of the boost? I'd expect the flow of air to be the biggest cause of spark blow out...

I don't understand why it doesn't occur at very high rpms?

Hi,

I suppose it has something to do with the air flow through the engine.
In middle area there is no restriction in head or turbine/exhaust. This mean, that you get all the "fresh air" what the compressor presses to the cylinders and if you don't have fuel enough, misfire.
The higher the gear is, the more work does the turbo giving more air to cylinder.

In high revs the real over pressure is more or less lover than the boost gauge shows, because of head, turbine or exhaust restrictions. When the exhaust valves opens there can be what ever back pressure, which won't allow fresh air come to cylinder.

This is how I have understood it.

- Jari -

when I described the issue to Guy Croft, he said that the spark could be blown out for several reasons. One is the obvious cylinder pressure caused by excessive boost. Another reason could be det, which causes *massive* localised increases in cylinder pressure (although usually in the squish band area)

However, more than one dyno session has confirmed no det at all, so I think we're probably looking at the fact that the stock coils aren't powerful enough to create a spark at much above 1.7 bar.

I'm going to gap my plugs down by 0.05mm at a time until I can hold the boost I want without killing the spark

The idea of blow out is maybe too literal for an understanding. The issue is the loss of the spark ar a very weak spark. The spark has to jump through an air gap which we know is a good insulator- hence pylons. However the more dense the air the greater the resistance to the spark. Either more spark energy is required or the gap needs to be easier to cross i.e. less of a gap, or less resistance in the low contuctive material i.e. air. the presence of the huge pressure of detonation could stop or cease an existing spark by insulating the spark path perhaps or creating a local pressure such that there is just too much resistance to jump the spark. As we could estimate higher the boost esp at max torque when cylinder density is at it highest the greatest restance to a good spark. As rev's rise we face a slightly different issue and that is the ability of the coild to charge between firing, thus very high rpm engine often need CD systems, or coil which charge very quickly.

regarding wiring, I uses thick gauge cable to the coil +, the ground is via the engine ground so easy to check, I know the chassis leg grounds can be a bit naff.

surely if these maps from pt are going wayward they should put them right again.
i was told by pt that the map would stay forever.

i will be getting mine rr again, if the maps out, they should put it right again, i would also want to know why the map didn't stay right, as thats what i paid for.

That's better

Clearly, ther ewas something wrong with the car - at least 60bhp down, struggling at the top end and tickover wasn't at all happy, especially when hot

So - I spent yesterday pulling most of the inlet tract apart to see what I could find.

Five minutes in, I found what was probably contributing heavily to the tickover issues - the end of the oil breather hose that that attaches to the SIP is vay hard and brittle, and had several cracks in it - enough to suck air in.

Next up, I notived one of my aluminium boost hoses (just after the FMIC) was covered in oil and muck - it was clearly getting sprayed with oil from somewhere. Given that there's no engine parts in that corner, I guessed it much be an intake leak. I whipped the hose off and found LOTS of oil residue inside the hose, together with a fair amount of water

While I was there, I shone a light into the FMIC and found LOTS of oil in there too.

So - all the boost hoses off, and the FMIC and three cans of carb cleaner later, its all clean and oil free again.

While I was putting it all back together, I had a quick check of the outlet hose from the turbo. Again, it was filthy with oil - another leak Three turns of the jubilee clip was enough to sort it.

Car all back together and off to Shakespeare County Raceway to meet Leighton for a quick check of the fuelling (been nearly 1,000 miles since he mapped it and I haven't reset the ECU, so I wanted him to see if the closing of the boost leaks had altered the fuelling)

Nope - still giving 11 - 11.5 AFR all the way to the redline at 1.6 bar

While I was working on the car, I gapped the plugs down to 0.73mm - the misfire has now gone at 1.7 bar.

Car is now SOOOOoooo much quicker AND smoother

Big test of the fuelling on Wednesday - Glasgow and back in a day - going to try and break my own record and do it on a single tank (540 miles)

So all this alarm about the PT map wandering for nothing then when there was all this gunk inside. I found it hard to believe that the map would wonder within 15 miles after it had been fine for so long. You tried 2Bar yet?

I think you have misunderstood Jason I'll let Nigel explain...

Being fair to Rob and Perfect Touch, there were big chunks of my map that were fine. Surprisingly little ignition advance and (on a reset ECU) very good fuelling once on boost.

However, there were a couple of issues that were causing my ECU to adapt very rapidly.

Part of this was down to the fact it was mapped to cope with 2 bar - it was throwing in quite a lot of fuel as the turbo hit peak boost - at lower boost levels, this resulted in overfuelling - adding to the adaptation issues.

IIRC, it was also running a bit rich off boost, which led to smooth running, but a slight loss of responsiveness

Leighton has ironed out the fuelling issues, which in turn would appear to have stopped the ECU adapting - instead of having to reset the ECU twice a day, I've now done a week without a reset and its still giving a steady 11.0 - 11.5 AFR right up to 1.7 bar

Certainly, the boost leak and air leak will also have been contributing to the running problems, although I suspect I've had an oily FMIC for a long time, as its been on for about three years now

I haven't tried 2 bar yeat, as its not mapped for that much boost yet. To be honest, I'm not sure I'll bother, as it was ridiculously violent to drive, didn't give me any more bhp (gave me lots more torque though) and was probably VERY thirsty. My best power was always at about 1.6 - 1.7 bar, so I'll probably stick with that

Guess you can't have it all then But if that is the case and the adaption kicks in below 2bar when it was mapped to 2bar if you wanted to run 2bar with fleas map wouldn’t the same thing happen again? What I’m trying to say is if you reckon that 2bar mapping gives the ECU a fit if Rob mapped your car to 1.6bar surely it would be the same as how it is now?

On a side note it has been discussed a while back including myself that with an AFM setup you have to map the 5V to maximum boost pressure and anything below that would run rich, that is one of the major down points with using the standard ECU/AFM. The only part that no one noticed until recently is the adaptive also adding to the mix. I guess that all this really shows is that standalone is a far better option.

In heinsite would you have gone with something like OMEX as its only £850+VAT including a base map then £500 for mapping?

The ecu adaption is complex certainly, there is no question that Nigel's problem was as extreme as it can get. That said, there were no mechanical reasons for the adaption TurboJ, it drifted within 17 miles due to incorrect mapping.

If it was mapped to 2bar it would be the same as it is now. It makes no difference what you map the peak boost pressure to as long as everything is done correctly, there should be little to no adaption.

Guess I’ll have to see how mine turns out, overtime. I love my 2Bar especially if I’m at TOTB next year

Add into that the cost of a custom loom.....

Would it be fair to say that any oil in the induction system would pool in the bottom of the FMIC? If so it might be an idea to drill a hole into it (that can be plugged of course) so you can drain the thing through from time to time...

I'm thinking about having a look at the piping to my FMIC this weekend. It seems a lot of people have leaks without knowing for ages.

I've already priced an Omex 710 ECU - about £845, plus another couple of hundred for the loom, then £500 - £1000 to map it.

Santa would need to be spectacularly generous this December for me to be able to go for it.