indeed i am happy as im looking at it like this now i got the car from akeme with a supposed 335bhp 300lbs torque on a PT map at 1.35bar with a fueling graph print off which didnt look great with some very lean fueling in some areas of rev range. (ruben & roger have said that the car did have cracked manifold etc which will affect the afr etc) fair enough but would it of not also been mapped with cracked manifold giving wrong afr when trying to map??? i dont know . . . . . the afr graph for 334.6bhp shows it making 300bhp at 15 afr just over 5200prm the ges as high as 15.8 afr when it makes its max power tht seriously lean rite? no wonder it put out that power? even with cracked manifold could it give upto a 4.3 difference in afr reading?? if soo then ok lets scrap the afr graph totally as it had a cracked manifold at the time of this run.

then,
after having the car couple of months i go to flea for the day and he drops me off in town then hour later get phone call saying my map is a bit all over the place etc and probably not going to have enough time to do anything with it today so think he just sorted out the areas where it was bit too lean for liking. etc but we still dyno'd it and the first run made 288bhp 244lbs torque at 1.35bar with an afr of 10.1 from 3500rpm onwards. running rich

Now,
Flea has mapped my car and i have a very steady mid 11's afr from 3500prm rite through to redline putting out 335bhp with 297lbs torque at 1.5bar. and its all round very responsive and now nice to drive so ive gained 53lbs of torque and 47bhp from leightons work. and have a peice of mind that car is running great and no longer altering itself the more miles i drive.

im VERY HAPPY when i look at it like this,altho no matter what i rekon IMHO there was some lean fueling on the pt map regardless to make them figures.


Turboj, this idle issue is soo annying but tbh we could all have very SLIGHT boost leaks that may only leak when under X amount of boost.

i say this as i only have bad idle if im at say 4/5000rpm on boost then see traffic lights ahead so i put clutch rite down to just coast and use brakes to stop the revs will drop down and bounce around not just couple rpm etc like 500/1000rpm for couple seconds and most of the time keeps itself running sometimes cuts out.

BUT, if i do the same thing but DONT put clutch rite in and coast. instead i go back down the gears slowly keeping the engine under load rite down to say 1st gear using brakes to help obviously my car will return to dle perfectly.

Does yours do this if you do same or have you not tried? if not maybe give it a go see if its same or different for u?

I also think the idling is down to the SIP. Mine also had this "feature" occasionally! Used to sound like the Delorean out of Back to the Future when it breaks down just before Marty is about to leave 1955!

I can't agree there im afraid, the best way for a modified car is to run a standalone engine managment system and then to be mapped on a dyno

the problem is that its the most expensive way

IMHO

in an ideal world yeah if only there was a not budget but sort of a budget one for the coupe i think all 300bhp+ owners would go tht way

Luke, with regard to your car and how it was running before Flea got his hands on its

AFR readings from and engine with a cracked manifold will not be accurate and as such are not worth mentioning here

Considering the fact that the standard coupe ecu has proven itself on several occasions now to alter the map, could this not be the reason why your PT map was so far off??

How cheap would something like that have to be to make that sort of option worth while in your eyes luke?

mine does as luke described and my car isnt mapped. if that helps?

Totally wrong, a cracked manifold has little impact if any on AFR readings. I have run on the track with a 3mm gap between the manifold and turbo due to loosening bolts. The AFR readings barely changed except at idle.



Er no, it wasn't mapped correctly that's why?? This was the same as Nigel's and others I have looked. There will always be small variations but moving from 10 afr to 13afr after 20 miles, you have to be kidding?!

I'm interested to know at which point you think you should go standalone and your reasons why?

I think you'll find that my comment was a 'tongue in cheek' comment about the Unichip.

Not everyone can afford Motec.

Just to reiterate my point about the cracked manifold. Here is Luke's fueling trace from SRR

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii211/johansson007/DSC01001.jpg

You'll notice as the run starts it is around stoich i.e. 14.7 as it should be. As boost builds it drops to 11.5 at 4000rpm where it should be, but then slowly leans out horribly towards the redline. It's doing everything as it should up to around 4.5k and then it starts to lean off badly. This may on occasion give you more top end power, but for a road car it's just plain wrong.

A cracked manifold doesn't cause the fueling to do that! There is one reason why the fueling did this and that is because it was mapped incorrectly, simple as that.

Well Flea i will have to disagree about the cracked manifold/AFR here, i have had on several ocasions on differing cars and setups had Changes in the AFR, not as far as Luke car had but quite a bit



As for the car not being mapped correctly, i do not know the story about what happened with lukes car, i was asking questions to see if there was any particular reason why the car was out of tune, being that the Ecu is self learning and people have suffered from this problem i thought that it could be the cause or part of the problem??

I dont know hence me asking!

As for a standalone engine management change over point, i think that should be done when the standard item is struggleing or needs to be fooled in one way or another

E.G. having to lie to the ecu with regard to MAF flow to Run extra BHP

At this point i would change but this is just my opinion


Also the cost of standalone systems now days make it worth while, not to mention all the benifits you can get on some sytems now days


this is my opinion and i do not own a coupe so take from it what you will, saying this though i have gone through all sorts of problems when tuning cars and have found that there is rarely a cheap option, as such i prefer to spend the money first, buying the correct equipment and avoiding problems in most cases


most people in the industry will tell you that most of the problems arise because the owner is trying to cut corners in one way or another, normally finacial

I personally prefer to do a job correctly first time rather than having to do it all over again once i find that one of the compremises has not held up, more expensive yes but normally alot more simple and reliable

As they say "you pays your money and makes your choice!"

sorry matt, i missed the "tongue in cheekyness", unichip is a good alternative i think.

Flea i did not say that the crack was the cause of lukes fueling problems, your getting very defensive im only asking questions to see if there is any other possible causes to the problems being experienced

Not to mention that i think its very un-profesional to publically slate a mapper or company.

I'm sure Leighton will correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think that if you are live mapping a coupe you can count that as 'fooling' the ECU as you are changing the values in the maps. I'm fairly sure he's also changed the MAF function so again it's more a case of recalibrating the ECU for higher airflow/bigger MAF housing and for more fuel/different injector openings for larger injectors.

There's no 'fooling' going on, it is actually a case of re-mapping the car.

trickymex it seems your getting the wrong end of the stick in many cases, it DID have a cracked manifold back when the prvious owner got it RR'd at 1.35bar on a "perfect touch map" and put out exactly the same figures ive managed with perfect AFR and 1.5bar boost. the PT map was very lean in places which IMHO makes me think thats how it made them figures at less bar if you get me. wether or not the crack effected the afr on the PT map it was at one point 4.3 afr higher than it should of been so VERY lean. near redline too soo car is under max load that surely is bit dngerous so if manifold does affect afr im pretty sure it doesnt affect it that much. . . you get me?? and what im trying to say.

also second to mattb what flea does is not fool the ecu. he REMAP's it.

So, have you replaced the cracked manifold before having Flea mapping it?

Luke i get you, i was just making a statment that AFR readings with a cracked manifold do affect AFR, though i do not think its atributed to your lean AFR's


As for the MAF/fooling the standard ecu, what i ment was the standard flow meter can only measure so much flow, i cant remember the limit with this specific MAF but lets say 300BHP for arguments sake, if you have say 350BHP then how has the flow meter measured the flow for the extra 50BHP?

Its quite common that a mapper would and its fine that they do scale it in a way so that the MAF is still measuring flow at the higher BHP, this is fine in most cases but i personally dont like it

Infact Flea has changed his own MAF, more than likely to measure more flow to make it easier to map and safer, maybe flea can elaborate on this himself to educate us all?

This is also a problem that many Skyline owners suffer from, the standard items can only measure upto about 480-500bhp so there are available aftermarket MAF's that can measure upto 800bhp before you have to start fooling the ECU, but at this point most have changed to aftermarket MAP based management system so no need to

My own skyline is running NISMO MAF's to combat this problem, im running a standalone management system but i will be changing it soon to a MAP based system

No problem. The older Unichips weren't the best/easiest to work with IMO however the new 'Q' versions are very good and give you far more control.

I spoke to Dastek before with regard to buying a dyno and they gave quite a bit of info on the unichip, they seem pretty good

Figures seem a lot more conservative this time round guess they fixed their pub dyno figures from last time.



Dodging it as much as you dodged your PT graph last time I called BS on your "480BHP" pub figure. I'm still waiting for that graph BTW

I told you already the dyno broke so couldn’t power run, I'm still owed a free power run anytime I want. I'm never afraid to show my graph the fact is I don't have it to show . I've been so busy with uni I haven't had time to pass round. As for squid the map never got finished as the boost controller broke no point in dyno graphing 0.7Bar is there?


Luke by the sounds of things your car has been through so much stuff its gonna be impossible to get to the bottom of what caused your problem. Being PT map, boost leak, manifold leak, previous owners work etc. The bottom line is you got some decent figures, and have a safe map.

Now going back to the ECU "MAF fooling" thing you are to a certain extent as you our out of range of the standard MAF. 5V max which means you have to map to max boost pressure anything between boost levels but still over 5V's will run richer. It also moves scope from bottom end idle.

Back onto idle issue....If it is the SIP causing why cannot it be mapped out? I think the problem may lie a little deeper than that but if that is the case it points back to the MAF yet again another weak point in the Bosch system.

I can also stand up for Leighton's mapping. The car drives really well, lots of off boost power (even better now i found my variator relay wasn't working)and on boost its like a different car.
My rr graph also shows how good the mapping was, as the power was really smooth right to the limiter (and also making power to the limiter)
I don't have any idle issues in any occasions and my idle is set quite low at 760rpm, even with a sip. So i don't think its anything to do with the maf or the bosch ecu.
I am 100% happy and if i do decide to go forged it will be going straight back to Leighton.

Ash

You did say that the AFR readings should be disregarded, no they shouldn't because if you ignore such evidence then you are risking alot.

As for publically slating a company, er excuse me? You have no doubt read my experiences, indeed read a little more as I have replied to Jason's comments in the RWYB section. You forget I spent £1500 with them not to mention a blown engine. I have also noticed, and I am sure others have, that you have very little to say about anything I do other than trying to question everything? Yet in the same post you are trying to defend the indefensible?! Why do you care so much about PT mapping, why are you trying to suggest they are not to blame but suggesting it is the Bosch ecu? Do you have any knowledge of what is happening? I don't say it glibly, there is a single reason why these maps are so inconsistant and it is down to the mapping, nothing else. I don't blame them per se, I wouldn't actually expect a tuner who normally works with standalone systems like Motec, or piggybacks like Power FC to understand a Bosch system. Most tuners are used to working with a nice GUI, the manufacturers make it as easy as possible to tune a car as they are a commercial product which is great. The Bosch Motronic is a factory system, it is not designed for anyone other than the people who designed it. I have created my own interface, no product off the shelf could give me the access that I have. It's a very complex but very sophisticated system, to tune it correctly you need to understand the bigger picture.

I'm not claiming to be perfect or the best mapper in the world, far from it, but quite recently "another" mapper on here slating my abilities said you either know what you are doing or you don't... I couldnt have said it better myself. The coupe world is a small community, I have been around for nearly 5 years, long before yourself and Jason. It's been a slow process getting coupes to the levels they have now, we don't have access to many off the shelf parts. I don't make a living from this, there aren't enough coupes! I do it because I enjoy it and I guess because I can. It's another option for all the coupe owners and quite frankly I am an anal ba***rd when it comes to mapping other peoples cars. You have never met me but many have. Despite being laid back and up for a joke, I would like to think people know that I am also very diligent. You may not always get that extra 5bhp because these are road cars and I like to keep that in mind, but I do my very best, which at the minute I think is the best option out there, other than Matty that is

I don't have a problem with Leightons maps. Never have and probably never will. I would let him map my car too if need be. My issue is with the ECU itself I’m not 100% convinced its the right route for me.

How is anybody supposed to take you seriously when you say things like that?

Leighton's 480bhp dyno sheet is on his Torquestats/modified website. Here is his car and here is the old dyno result. I'm assuming that's the one you're referring to?

I think the secret to Leighton's mapping is having a 'friend called Dave' to help out. Everyone should have one! Infact I've renamed my step daughter Dave to help me when I'm working on the car. Seems to have worked a treat

OK where to start..

Well fisrt things first im defending no-one, i know Rob pretty well but i would never defend his work as i have never had a car mapped by him

Im saying its not professional to publically slate a company or person

If someone suggested the same thing about you or FC performance i would do the same for your benefit

Also i have NOT blamed the standard ECU, i simply asked a couple of questions directed at Luke and you have immediatly become very defensive, answering questions on his behalf

Also flea because you say something is fact does not make it fact, i make my own conclusions to a problem with the information i have to hand, hence me asking questions, incedently they were not asked of you but you feel you must answer anyway?

Flea, i have not once critisised the work your doing, you seem to think im taking a dig at you or something?

Any of the questions i have asked you are simply my personal quriosities(sp), I am no fool and have alot of experience when it comes to tuning performance cars and engines, not just road but for race applications as well, more than 5 years and a very wide veriaty of cars/engines, so im no new comer thats playing with my car on the drive

This is a forum where people ask advice of people with more experience then them selfs to solve problems, im simply trying to help if i can

As for your mapping abilities, i could not care less, you seem to be doing ok and if you were doing things wrong then the client would be the first person to complain, so you cant be doing that bad

If i suggest to someone on here that they should go for a standalone system then thats just my advice, it may be the opposite to what your saying but its my advice, people will take it or leave it, thats not any of my concern but i like to think that i gave someone the best advice i can, bear in mind i have probably done everything anyone on here is trying to do on one car or engine that i have worked on

in general your right, i do not say anything on this forum as most of the time i do not want to tread on other peoples toes.

you also need to bear in mind that i have nothing to gain from giving advice one way or another, i dont work on engines or cars anymore and i spend most of the year in spain where i own my own business and spend most of my time playing with one of my own toys

but you seem to have jumped all other everything i have said simply because its not what you feel is right, if i wanted your opinion then i would ask


ironically for the £1500 you spent with PT you could have bought one of the standalone sytems on the market and got it mapped, so i kind of think you have proved my point with regard to a standalone system, although you would not be mapping peoples cars but your not making much money out of that so no major loss there

Anyway you may think that your option is the best apart from matty's, well i dont, dont get upset though its just my opinion, take it or leave it.

I think it's just down to different rolling roads luke, I made 300lb/ft and 314 bhp on a GT28R at 1.2 bar on a dyno dynamics RR, (the same one which gave everybody elses coupes accurate results). Try going back to surrey rolling road?

i was thinking that 2 only way to get best before and after results . . . .

Ok Tricky, I have said my piece and having read yours I think I'll let everyone else makeup their own minds.