I have had a few PM's asking is 300bhp possible on the standard turbine, and what compressor wheel should be used. I am now onto version 4 of this modified factory turbo. All builds to date all with a t3 .48a/r hot side. thought I would put up a few of my finding as there seems to be alot of talk about bigger T3 turbos etc

Turbos I tried

T04b s trim with stage 1 turbine - not bad, but could get a bit of surge when boost hard at low revs and wanted a newer style (read more efficent) wheel so that one was removed. T04b wheels are less forgiving with surge than the newer wheels and have smaller "islands" but can still post good numbers on the right setup.

HKS2835 compressor (47mm inducer, 69mm exducer), similar to Mitsi 16G in t04b hat, on stage 1 turbine - seemed to be limited to around 260bhp, more boost gained no more power though it seemed to do it easier than the OE compressor - it would also hold 1.2bar to 7000rpm however 16psi and 20psi yeilded the same power to within 2bhp on the same day. Suspected turbine flow but as next version shows it didn't seem to help

HKS2835 compressor, similar to Mitsi 16G in t04b hat, on stage 2 turbine. I suspected turbine was maxed out so swapped to stage 2 turbine (effective .52a/r) but still more boost didn't make more power. Therefore decided compressor, which should be good for 320bhp, didn't like the t04b hat - building untested hybrid didn't seem to payoff

Latest version I have swapped out the HKS2835 compressor wheel for a T04E 50 trim in a T04E hat, turbine is stage 2, also had a custom manifold fabricated, 40mm ID "steampipe" tube, 8kg compared to 5.5kg for OE but will not crack. and custom bracket to take load

External wastegate off the snail - all ceramic coated


Compressor map T04E 50 trim - peak flow is at 6000rpm so shouldn't fall off the island


Tubular manifold 40mm ID 4mm wall thickness ceramic coated


Turbine stage 2 with T04e hat - alot bigger than OE but clears the gearbox


].48a/r housing with external wastegate mount in place


Bolted back together ready to go onto the manifold


I am lucky enough to have a good turbo guy who does all these swaps without charging much, otherwise a GT3071R would be the way to go (not GT3071R-WG IMHO). I have now built such a specialised exhaust system to suit the turbine mounted wastegate I am going to stick with this turbine side as long as possible, beside I am not a big fan of lag (or do I mean boost threshold ) that comes with big A/R's.

Should be on the dyno in the coming weeks with custom dink chip

BTW - before anyone asks I have 330mm brakes Alfa GTA brakes and Osrav Dual adjustable shocks, eibachs etc so it stops and turns

Hey Paul

I thought that 16G was really some kind of HKS wheel or even something unknown?

This new turbo will do the trick IMO! 200kw no prob!

what mitsu 16g wheel are you talking ?

hr16g wheel is proven to make at least 412.5hp / 520nm on lancia delta integrale engine.
boost around 1.55bar
what was the chip on your car ? fuels, exhaust, cooler etc.
its strange, that you only make that 260hp..

im wit saint on this the standard turbine just wont keep up with the flow for 300bhp, like saint even though saint has gone the way i wanted external wastegate i chose internal waste gate with a machine compressor housing and a all new core with everything uprated so i can flow upto 400bhp with it safely,

theres more to 300 bhp than just a big blower you need a fully worked head inlet tinkered with bottom end uprated theres a long long list it can be achieved easily but not safely like 1.55 bar can your engine take that much pressure.

i would like to see more 16vt's being tuned as the vast majority are 20vt's and there are only something like 600 16vt's left be a shame to see one fall to poor tunning,

saint what custom map you running im intreeged

I think the same on that turbine too.. of course.
I have had 325hp with internal gate, then the same results with external gate...STANDARD HEAD.
16vt engine does not need headjob for 300hp, thats for sure..
after that the first thing is cams..
standard headbolts are good too..
gasket is not that good.
those +400hp numbers are not from my engine, I have coupe.
I hope I get somewhere between 350-400hp on my car, with same turbo, than used on that 412.5 hp run...
only a different cams.
with good turbine housing ( even with .48 ) and remember, not all .48 are the same size ! hope you underastand.
you can get even on small 49mm turbine wheel that 400hp
I have talked here also very much with local turboman, and with garrett 49mm turbine and 51.5mm compressor, there is at least 2 200sx s14 +400hp . ( 1.6bar )
best results from evo 9 mitsu, with only 3" exhaust and custom chip is over 400hp / 1.5bar
usually gets near 400hp anyway..
and that turbo specs from wheels are turbine 49,2mm and compressor wheel is 48,3mm .

what size was that stage 2 turbine wheel ?

looks really good saint

Only 600 left??
Having my standard exhaust removed tues and replacing with larger turbo elbow and full 2.5" blue flame system (including decat) which i'm hoping will take me over the 300 bhp mark... Made 265 bhp a couple of weeks ago, that was running wrong programme also as i'm awaiting a revised version for my larger injectors!

Also got a throttle possition sensor error and fooooked manifold gasket (blowing) to sort!!

with the right programme (upping boost to 1.4 bar), coupled with exhaust i'd like to see 330 bhp, that'll be with the standard ar 48 housing as my turbo guy told me not to bother with larger one as YES it will make more top end power but i'd rather have my turbo spooling up quick!!

330 bhp should feel nice with the 48 housing, boost nice and early, may even get full boost by 3700??

I think our engines could easily take 1.55 bar boost to be honest but its not an option with our ecu!!
I'd love to wack my boost up as my t34 is hardly breaking sweat at 1.4 bar!!

I agree that 300 bhp with 16vt is a tougher nut to crack than i'd imagined, and its expensive!! much easier in a 20vt.... but there can't be many 16vts running over 300 bhp??

Nick

JTM - that 16g was the "big" version but what I think caused problem was the To4b hat it was machined into, cant think what else it was once I had gone to the stage 2 turbine on that unit.

stage 2 turbine from memory is a 2.599 inducer (60mm) turbine so quite big and the stage 2 is higher trim than the standard t3 turbine

I have c&B cams which are good for top end (10mm lift, 260 duration intake- 9mm , 245 duration exhaust)

I have a spesso head gasket so could run 1.5bar but prefer lower as it all gets a bit hot on the track

I cant remember what chip I was running but it wasn't dinks, maybe evocars or another brand

I'll post up some graphs from the different turbo's tomorrow.

Anyway - this turbo is a 400bhp+ capable wheel now in the garrett housing it is meant to run so interested to see if more boost will now mean more power or if i have hit the limit of something else. more boost didn't make more power on my last turbo so should be interesting

for the compressor housings :

mitsu evo 4-8 smaller housings vs the evo 9 housing
( same wheel )
--> housing difference is around 10-15hp, what I have read. So there can be differences of course, too small housing cant flow enough air .
( those were otherwise same turbo )
on my 325hp run it was 1.4bar boost, max power came 5700rpm.
yes the standard map is 2.5bar, and with less boost you can make the power.. is good
for the spooling part :

mitsu evo 9 turbo + lancia integrale engine :

2500rpm 0.6bar
3300rpm 1.8bar ( just to show, how good it spools )
so my case max boost is reach around 3000rpm/ 4th gear
( 1.4bar )
hope you get some good power, its not funny, when building an building, and then when car is on dyno, you get +2hp

Speaking of tuned 16VT's, I just finished tuning my hybrid T04e build. More on that soon.

Incidently, can anyone take an educated guess at what sort of revs peak power should be at on a T04e with standard cams? 6000rpm-ish??

T04E will hit power depending on your setup and the size of the exhaust fan if you keep the oe size exhaust fan and uprate the intake fan you will get spool at 2.5k revs around 4k+,

on my setup im at full boost 1.3 bar at 3k revs and pulls all the way to the limiter,

standard exhaust is a god turbo once the internal have been changed from 270 to 360 bearings, but it wont flow as good through a large intercooler so will struggle to hold boost at high revs,

turbos are swings and round abouts

small = good spool
large = means alot of lag
medium = a mix of both great spool and brilliant top end


and yes only around 600 16vt's left

if your engine is ok condition, and everything else is done
( exhaust, fmic. fuels etc, etc.. good chip etc )
you can have with standard cams around 320-340hp with 1.4 - 1.45bar boost.
( I had 325hp, and some other with headwork done, made 342hp standard cams )

Verry nice work

1.3 bar at 3000 revs???

With a larger downpipe and standard turbo i think you'd struggle to get 1.3 bar by 3400revs let alone 3000revs with your turbo?? (yours is larger isn't it??)
AND your running 63 ar exhaust housing arn't ya?? I can't see you getting full boost at 3k with your turbo spec.... If you are your deffo doing something right!!

Nick

ill post a vid,

on the ebv i hit peak boost at around 4-5

on the dawes it starts to boost 2.5k for a msbc its a awesome piece of kit but it is fierce boost just rises n not gradual either

evochip new turbo
http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f...?action=view&current=07032009006.flv

standard turbo boosting to 1.1 bar at 2.5k revs
http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f...?action=view&current=09022009005.flv

Have you been on rolling road yet??

What sort of power you reckon??

Nick

i rekon easy 240+ on the evo chip

With my old turbos I could hit 1.2bar at about 3400rpm or so.

I am trying to cheat a bit with this turbo, normally big turbo's mean slower spool and more top end.

I think my current turbo build is likely get near the limit of a big compressor wheel on a small hotside (not the turbine size but the a/r). The a/r at .48 is small to flow anything like the capcity of the compressor wheel.

A turbo guy who has helped on my car has tried machining big turbines (t04 "O" trim and perhaps even "P" trim) into T3 .48 but he said a/r has a greater impact than turbine size on spool.

The problem with what I am trying here will be surge, if the .48 spools that T04e too quickly I will below the surge line and then it could choke the flow up high (ie could be a lemon) but I am confident based on other builds this won't be the case. Dyno will tell. I have a EBC like the Apexi AVCr where I can set boost by revs so I hope this will control any issues but of course I can tune it to less than my wastegate spring (currently 10psi). The other risk is that the turbine wont have enough power to drive the bigger t04 compressor wheel but I think this is unlikely

i think i'm seeing just under 1.2 bar at around 3600 revs at mo, thats with t34/standard 48ar exhaust housing... been having 2.5" full exhaust system, with 2.75" turbo elbow fitted today and tommorrow, will this make for faster turbo spool???

Nick

are you on the standard ebv? nick

and saint is correct you need to keep the exhaust side smaller for spool but it does have its limits

Using Acdelco EBV..

hopefully will reach (and pass) 300 bhp this week, prob would have got there a while ago with 63 ar housing tho!!??
Although think i'll be happier with 300 bhp with smaller housing as lag will be minimal!!
Can't wait to get car back today and see if i can feel a difference with new exhaust system fitted!!

Nick

The setup that I've just finished building and tuning is almost the exact same setup you're considering: T04e 44 trim comp with stock .48 a/r turbine @ 0.8 Bar using an mbc

With the mbc reaches full boost by 3500rpm-ish, and acceleration is indeed fierce

I noticed when accelerating hard in second gear the boost can drop off sharply. I did some quick calculations on the t04e comp map and it runs spools up very close to the surge line. So I suspect that it's surging. That's only in 2nd gear in certain conditions so I'm not too fussed.

The only real way to tell if the small turbine chokes flow at the top end is on the dyno, but it doesn't 'feel' like it's being choked. Seems to pull like a train all the way to rev limit.

Thanks kj

In looking at the t04e maps I can only see the 40 trim and the 46 trim (so can't find the 44) but both of those 2 wheels have similar surge lines to the 50 trim so mine may be much the same

Can I ask why you are only running .8bar as that is pretty low even compared to standard

Normally surge is worse in higher gears, as you can generate more time at WOT at lower revs (ie 3000-4000 in 5th can take a while at WOT.

Have you had it RR's for power on that setup? and pleased to hear you don't think you have hit the limit of the turbine (mine is also stage 2 turbine)

I couldn't find a 44 trim map either but I figured the 46 trim map would be close enough.

I'm running .8bar just to be easy on the car and the turbo (I only built it with a 270* bearing), but if you reckon it's low I might wind it up a bit more! I want to keep it below 300bhp though cause I'm not intending to rebuild the engine yet.

Not had it dyno'd yet but it's on the cards...

I just bought an evo chip from ebay and I did not install it yet. As i m afraid it will effect my immobilize and I still have no inter cooler.

What do you think Thanks Johann

as for the intercooler , no problem .
i ran my coop with the evo chip and no fmic never had any problems . only had some other little mods but with everything running standard.as for imobilizer i imagine its mapped with out it.