Well next week car is going in for some new parts,
New sump
Fix oil leak
Fix the on going banging noise.
Plus checking oil pressure sender, getting to bottom of low oil pressure readings.

I was going to sell the car but spoke to the wife and if the low readings is worn bearings etc.
I have been given the green light for a full engine overhaul.


Now im after some infomation on the best way to go about this.
Costs.
Also where to get work done.
I wont be just having a standard rcon im going for the full works.
Advice on what to have done etc will be great

If it's a full works job especailly a 16v unit.. Go speak to keith at auto integrale, he's currently rebuilding my delta 16v unit. That man is a star.. not cheap and if your going for the FULL MONTY expect a 8000+ bill.. speed is just a question on money, how fast do you really want to go.

Cheers tim

Hi Tim cheers for that, i wont be going near 8k, but 2-3k depending what i can get done for that... any advice taking this into consideration?

depends upon your definition of 'full' rebild i guess,

but, for safe, reliable, power i'd be considering...

forged + balanced pistons,
forged + balanced rods,
balanced crank (not sure about this, 16vt owners could help...)
lightened and balanced flywheel (only a couple of kilos for road use)
ideally some head work, porting + polishing and the like, and matching to manifolds.

...and nice big turbo!

now F927 UBS is right about a full comprehensive blueprinted build potentially costing silly money, but a rebuild with the main bits done doesnt need to cost anywhere near that.

sorry, for lack of specific 16vt info, but i dont know too much about them!, but im sure other 16vt owners could advise you to what gaskets etc you may need.

A good idea may be to ask begbie what he recommneds.

its worth mentioning though that if yo increase power considerably you should also factor in prices of higher rated clutches and brake upgrades as well!

cheers Owl, thats what im looking for,
I think hoping the turbo would also be covered in the budget might be optmistic though.?
yes higher rated clutch is something that would come in seperate.
Hopefully Begbie will be on here soon.
Thanks mate.
Sy.

you can buy the parts yourself you can use lancis delta parts on the 16vt engine

http://www.walkers-garage.co.uk/shop/

I have built many race engines and im happy to give you some advice but you cannot do any work with out checking every little part of the engine

People have mentioned Blueprinting well if someone builds and engine with out blueprinting it then im afraid its not done properly

every clearence has to be checked and every part needs to be inspected for wear and every part that goes back in your engine needs to be with-in manufacturer tollerences

Although Fiat seem to have quite wide tollerances especially when it comes to the weight differences on the rods and pistons

Just a quick question on this topic, my car has done 104000 miles now and i'm wondering how much it would cost to recondition it plus fit rods and pistons.

It's a long term thing really but wouldn't mind knowing what it's likely to cost.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Magic

as above - depends on what spec you want the engine to be built to.

I have spoken to Integrale devlopments (associated with Auto Integrale) about building a 16vt 450 bhp engine - they charge well over 10K for this. Whilst I am sure that they will do a very good job, this is an UTTER waste of money to spend on a coupe IMO. For a decent rebuild on standard internals, re-using a few parts if they do not look worn you are looking at 2-3K.

As PowerItalia are not doing the 16v engines any more I would speak to Motormech in Birmingham.

cheers, Im going to give Motormech a call like suba says, fullengine rebuild to get 450 bhp costing 10k is crazy and out of my league.

But surely a new engine built to last and a few performance internals should be poss with my budget?

Anyone know what realistic power gains im going to get and can recommend the parts i should be getting done. so then asking Motormech is going to be easy for me when asking for quotes etc.

why not give paul (motormech) a call and have a chat? I'm sure he could tell you what he recommends, answer any questions you may have, and give you a better idea of price than speculating on here?

point taken thanks mate.

And then update everyone as to what Paul says...

I have not built a Fiat 16v turbo engine but in any engine build you will have to budget for a fair amount of parts and work

I will try to list most of them here but no doubt i will forget some so i will try to update it as i remember

Parts to buy:

Forged pistons
Forged rods
Big end shells
Main bearing shells
Thrust bearings
Complete gasket set (inc Head gasket)
Stretch bolts if needed (heads bolts,main cap bolts)
Oil pump (if worn)
oil filters
Cam-belt
cam-belt tensioner
All aux belts and as a matter of course i would change all the aux tensioners as well
water pump
thermostat
Valve stem seals (if not included in the gasket set)
Spark plugs

Work required:

Block boring
Block refacing
Crank balance
Flywheel skim (if needed)
Chemical cleaning

Other items:

Paint for block
Wrap for manifold
oil for running in
oil for after running in
new airfilter
new fuel filter
New clutch (if worn or not upto the job)
Clutch release bearing
Power steering fluid
Air-con regass (in most cases)


This list does not cover things like

Turbo
intercooler
Injectors
Piping
uprated oil cooler
mapping

Or parts that may need to be replaced as they are faulty

E.G: sensors or Coils..


On top of all of this you need to budget for the labour of the engine build itself and taking the engine out and refitting it after the work has been done, you may want to do this yourself to save a few quid

Hope this helps

Ricky

Well done Ricky, nice write up

Good luck magicsy if you proceed with above.

i have spoke to balance motorsport next is motormech,
They said they would gas flow the cylinder head to give bigger Bhp, without as much boost.
They also mentioned that low oil pressure at idle isnt too much of any issue.

Thanks ricky hani and all the above.
Will update once spoken to Motormech.

After having a good talk to the guys at Balancemotorsport
I feel my oil issue is nothing to worry about.
Still going to get oil pressure reading done.
But they have told me that low oil pressure at idle in my engine, is nothing to be concerned about.

As the cars pressure rises to almost 3 bar at 2500rpm, at idle the load on every part of the engine except the valve train is very low and the valve train is well lubricated in this lump.
So thats cheered me up.
And is perhaps some good info for anyone else concerned.

I am however switching my oil to Millers 15/60 fully synthetic.

I will now hopefully if the redings are good have some good cash to use for some head work and forged parts.Plus a slightly bigger turbo.

I dont agree with what they are telling you im afraid

Low oil pressure is low oil pressure in my eyes

And for your information the valve train is actually under higher load till you reach about 2500rpm, hence why you need to run in new cams in at around 2000rpm for about 5-10 mins

your low oil pressure is most likely caused by baggy clearences on the main and big end bearings and that is the most common cause for spun bearings, if that happens then you could wipe the engine out totally

Or you could be very lucky and have a faulty oil pressure sender and/or gauge


What you need to do is check the big end and main bearing clearences and make sure they are within tollerance, if they are then you need to inspect the oil pump

I know it all sounds doom a gloom but low oil pressure is something you need to get to the bottom of imediatly or you you could end up with a massive bill on your hands for replacments parts

for your info all the fist 20vt engines i have built have had cold idle oil pressures above 60psi (4 bar) but i am very fussy about bearing clearences

If you are only getting 3 bar by 2500rpm then i would be very worried

Here are some other cold start idle oil pressures to compare against

I have built all these engines

zetec turbo x 4 = all 60+ psi
CVH turbo x 6 = 70+ psi
Cosworth YB x 3 = 60+ psi
Crossflow x 4 = 50+ psi
Pinto x 4 = 55+ psi
Nissan RB26 x 2 = 90+ psi

thats all i have records for here and some of these had uprated oil pumps but all the zetec's,pinto's,crossflow's had standard O/E oil pumps

If you want i can giude you through a step by step guide on how to measure your bearing clearences conventionally and with plastigauge

Regards

Ricky

that would be great Ricky.
when i say its at 3bar at 2500rpm's im only using the boost oil gauge as the guide obviously this only goes to 3 bar.
Remember i have a 16vt too

What is your idle oil pressure when warm? Rising to 3bar by 2500rpm sounds fine and sounds like a normal 16v engine. The 16v engine will happily do 1 - 1.5bar at idle when warm and isn't anything to be concerned about, so whilst the information Ricky has given you is for other engines, i would maybe use it as a guide and not truth. Also, cold oil pressure on a normal 16v engine is between 6 - 8bar, but the gauge never reads that high, so you never know

I have to correct you there cos it was 85psi and its still 85psi a year later

Sorry, i forget that its a 16v lump and as Begbie has said it was more of a guide

I will try and sit down later to write out a guide on how to check the clearences for you

Ricky

Yeah i noticed that last night and forgot to edit it, i got it mixed up with another engine

Its true and Ricky there's a world of difference between hot and cold idle which you might know but other might get confused. When the oil is cold its is much thicker (dept on oil type) but in general its that way. This low viscosity is what make it harder to pump and therefore increase the pressure (lower flow). As the oil heats it becomes thinner and viscosity increases, meaning less pumping resistance and lower pressure. At start up using capilary gauge on the my 16v engine it is 60-80 psi dep on ambient, after a race at 1100 rpm idle it can be lower then 25ps, doesnt bother me as long as it over 25psi when doing useful work its should be ok.

At 100C oil temp on an average day at idle I have no less than 30psi on cold start it's 85psi. I use 15/50. Its been like that for a year since the rebuild.

Rich your 100% right but i tend to use cold start oil pressure readings as there is less of a variation on tempratures

For example some engines that i have built have run oil tempretures upto nearly 120 degrees and some get no higher than 90 degrees the viscosity can change alot between these tempratures

That does not mean that taking a cold start reading is 100% correct but it tends to have less of a variation

What we really need is some people with a 16v coupe to give an indication of what oil pressure they are getting cold, hot and anthing in between


But one thing is for sure and that is, there is a oil pressure warning light there for a reason if its coming on then it does not matter if the oil is hot or cold or what rpm the engine is running at there is a problem

Albit it could be something quite simple like a faulty pressure sender or the totally wrong oil??

Rich and I have both given values for hot / cold and anything inbewteen, so what else is needed?

a 473 post, 48 page discussion about it.....

Is it worth an engine rebuild? Run the engine until it doesn't work, then think about it IMO.

If you want a forged engine by a 20VT with one already fitted. Chances are that if you find a forged 20VT it will have been better looked after aside from being newer than your 16VT.

The 20VT is a better engine anyway

The only other thing that would be helpfull would be to know what pressure the low pressure warning light comes on

most i have worked with are around 20-25 psi and if this is the case with the 16vt and you and Rich are happily running around this figure with no problems then its probably not worth worrying about to much