Dropped my coupe in yesterday evening to get a full service done in readyness for my NCT (MOT) next week.

The garage started work today and phoned this afternoon to ask where the Airbag socket was so that they could reset the warning light. While I was on the phone I asked if everything else was alright with the car and I was told 'yes, everthing was good; no boost leaks from turbo pipes, no coolant leaks'. They just needed to do a test drive.

Got a call a while later to say that a rattle was noticed on the test drive that sounded like the big end bearings on their way out. I was then asked what oil pressure I usually get and I said "3 bar cold, 2.5 bar idle at 80 degrees, 3 bar over about 1300rpm at any temp and that the lowest reading I've ever had (very briefly) was about 2.1 bar at idle in a traffic jam on a hot summer day with the engine at about 94 degrees (I normally have my widget plugged in).

The reply was 'uh your car is idling at around 1 bar, but rises to 2+ bar when revved'

Dropped over to the garage after work to investigate and the engine was turned over from warmish (53 degrees). I got a 2.8 bar reading and could not notice any untoward sounds from the engine bay........ until it was revved to about 2,000+ rpm, when I was introduced to a quite noticeable knocking sound from the engine. I switched of the car before I could witness a low oil pressure reading.

When I dropped the car in it had no rattle whatsoever (You couldn't not notice the knocking) and I have never had a reading of 1 Bar, nor would I consider it normal to drive with that kind of reading.

The garage is gonna take off the sump tomorrow and check the damage, but it appears to me that as far as the garage is concerned, my car could have been like that when it arrived and they won't be paying for any repairs. It's my problem!!

Gutted. I know it'll be a case of their word against mine. I don't know where I stand until they ring back tomorrow with a list of repairs, if it can be repaired....

i hope this is a 1st of April joke, i fear its not however?

dont know what to say mate, sounds like bottom end with that oil pressure and that noise

you have my sympathy

oh no, bet they ragged it

I hope they didn't forget something silly like putting fresh oil in after the change?

Can't see why it should knock, not if it was running sweet before it went in

Joe might have a point here

I reckon they might have started it after forgetting to put any oil in, or something along those lines.

what was the method used for checking oil level after refilling???????????
is the question i would be asking
i.e left to idle to operating temperature,switch off and leave for ten minutes,then check.

Is shot big end bearings repairable though?

I mean am I looking at sump out, new shells and bearings, job done

or

New engine (which will be nigh to impossible to source in Ireland)

If the big ends are damaged then the crank will need replacing as the bearing journal will also have wear

It's not just a case of replacing the big end bearings, you'll only get a away with this if its a high mileage engine with a very slight rumble, try and get the garage to take some photos of the crank once they've dropped the sump off.

Mmmmm.... I'll talk to the garage tomorrow and try and get pics of the crank.

Engine has 70k on it.

Can crank and bearings etc be replaced with the engine in situ?

No it'll have to come out to change these parts, and then there's a good chance it'll need an good internal clean and blow out with an airline as bearing swarf would be present.

I just don't understand why a 70k engine should now choose to start knocking after just a general service, don't get me wrong I'm not slagging the garage down it just that these engines rumble before knocking and I'm sure you would of noticed this noise.

That's the frustrating thing. I'm fastidious about my coupe's maintainence. I check the oil every Saturday without fail and top it up if required. Last top up was last Saturday where I put about 200ml in.

I certainly would have heard a rumble from the engine bay. There is no way I could not have heard that knocking, but more importantly, I glance at the Oil Pressure gauge religiously. I check it every time I'm stationary or crawling in traffic and I glace at it every couple of mins when up to normal driving speed. The gauge is always at 3 bar over 1300 rpm at 80 degrees, 3 bar idling cold and 2.5 bar at idle at 80 degrees.

It drove into the service garage hot idling at 2.5+ bar. It hasn't left the garage yet (beyond the test drive) and it's now idling at 1 bar (according to the garage). I can't understand why I may end up paying for the repairs when the engine was starved of oil whilst driving at the hands of the garage, not me.

Given all you've said, I think it's clear you've been stiffed. You're checking oil levels weekly etc; no way can it go into a garage and then start knocking all of a sudden.

Sounds like they've drained it of oil, forgot to re-fill, and then run it, simple. Quite how you prove that though, who knows.

Tricky, to say the least. Not sure how you go forwards from here.

Well joes experiences are by far grater than mine, but i had a 20v block go from no rumbling, fine cold start no rumble (cant tell you oil pressure as it was in a bravo) to stone dead in the course of a motorway trip. I know pauls red vis also suffered a simuler fate

what i'm trying to say is.....its very unueseal but not totally unheard of, my block fell apart on 60k

i don't want to give you false hope here, so i'm not going to, the garage are not going to admit that they ballsed up, (even if they did) and you have to be aware however unlikely is is that this may actually not be there fault. As you have no way of categorically proving that it was there negligence that caused this. Any court is going to assume innocent till proven guilty. im not saying dont go down the route of trying to push the garage, just be aware that this may be a fruitless exercise.

i know this is a real bitter pill to swallow, trust me, i know, i have been there.

what to do next?

how much do you love the car? your looking at a big bill, it may be cheaper if you source a good second hand parts.....or depending on the damage a second hand block
I dont think your going to get much change out of 900-1k for the work and the bits, more so if you have to go for a second hand block

there are a few people on here that will do the work for you, as you probably aware i fly Joes flag for my personal fave. mainly because he calls a spade a spade, stands by his work as is very reasonable cost wise (he bribes me with cake to say all that )

not sure what else to say to you, if you have the money may be a good time to go down the forged route as the work needs to be done anyhow now.

all i can say is sorry chap, its a fairly gutting experience all said

I agree with Hedge, sounds like classic symptoms of a garage forgetting to put the oil in after an oil change and then going out and booting it through the gears.

You will be able to tell if it has been run with no oil once the crank is out, altough i would advise you immediately take the car to another garage and inform all parties that you are seeking legal advice.

What are the visual signs of wear on the crank as a result of oil starvation?

My trouble is that I'm in Ireland, not the UK. There aren't any Motormech’s, PowerItalia’s, Countrycruising’s or CarlT's over here. I'd prefer to get the car fixed by a specialist in the UK but the costs of transporting it over one week and back the next may be prohibitive.

I'm really down about the whole thing. I think now, no matter what the outcome, my love for the Fiat Coupe has been destroyed. I'll most likely sell the car on once it's fixed, even at a huge loss. I think between buying the car, paying import duty and putting a new turbo on, the car owes me about €9,000. If I spend another €1,500-€2,000 fixing it might be worth €5,000 over here. I don’t even have the car a year yet.

I think I’ll get a full cost for repairs here and if the price in the UK is similar taking into account 3 ferry trips and 1 flight etc. I’ll take the car to Motormech and get the engine replaced.

if the car was driven severly low or with no oil in the engine then expect to see serious wear and spinning of more than one shell, wear on the main bearings and big end bearings.


Id also expect there to be a considerable amount of metal swarf inside the sump.

In my opinion, its plainly obvious that is was run with no, or little oil in the engine, and driven like that too.

If it started knocking during a service the oil pressure would still be ok in most cases with very light knocking, typically only audible under revving the engine.

shells dont just spin themselves suddenly unless they have no lubrication. When they wear it starts with light knocking, which gets progressively worse.

Hope this helps.

Rog.

Thanks Rog,

The car in question was Paul R's Coupe (used to work for you) so you'll maybe recognise it (used to be S634 EEH) He's now with PSR Automotive.

If the garage hasn't touched the car yet, I might document the odometer mileage and get a low-loader to take it away somewhere else for examination.

they cant do any repair work without your consent.

i know the car, it was in lovely condition when paul had it.

seriously though - big ends dont just fail suddenly and lose oil pressure.

This is a hiss take. You go in and accuse them of negligence. You give in and they will take take take. Coyboys have no laws or morals and like taking large chunks of money. Dont let them change any shells. If the swarf is not clean but dark its seen heat associated with no oil
You have grounds too take them to court with your weekly oil check.
These cars are a doddle to service. You only need basic tools and quality service parts. Why pay a monkey when a small investment in tools (very small if you go to your local car boot)and the jobs done in a couple of hours and great satisfaction. You dont know what has been replaced and dont take anyones word for it, always check.
There are very very few people you can trust in the motor trade. Its easy money when your out of sight.
I dont want to scare anyone but always check any work done and if your unhappy play hell. Obviously cam belts and diagnostics are not home jobs.
Maybe this incident will prompt folks to look under the bonnet and do a few checks before work is carried out. If it goes in for a new turbo mark the old one so you know it has been changed Etc.

Just be aware that if you remove the car for further inspection by someone else the garage may feel that it's not their responsibility any more, get some legal advice on this matter before making a decision.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Sounds like the garage is at fault here, worst bit being that the turbo could be knackered aswell after it has been run with no oil!!!!

If I was you I would get it to poweritalia and a new engine, however they are liable. happy to help anyway I can

Went to the garage this evening to get the diagnosis.

So there is scoring on the cyclinder 2 shells and slight scoring on the crank. See here.

These are the shells.

There doesn't appear to be any scuffs on the other shells or any scoring of the crank elsewhere.

So, the reason for the damage?

All the mechanic can figure is that yes the damage may have happened during the test drive but it was not directly caused by the garage.

When he finally removed the sump he noted that the sealant used to previously seal the sump had been applied rather excessively and there was quite a lot of it on the inner side of the sump and a lot of little bits and pieces of it stuck in the oil pickup mesh. He figures that pouring in the oil during the service may have disturbed or dislodged a few more pieces which clogged part of the oil pickup, restricting the oil flow and starving the engine of oil.

The garage has ordered new main bearings, big end bearings and shells and they will be fitted on Monday

Hmmm, I thought Rog tended to apply the sealant fairly liberally to make sure it didn't leak later, unlike when I did it, I applied so little it was as if the sealant were made of gold...so now it leaks The sealant goes hard and should stay there, can't believe that pouring new oil in could wash off bits of sealant, the oil goes in at the top and drains down through the engine.

Did they remove the sump plug and drain the old old through the hole, or suck it out via the dipstick? Did you get to see the oil that was there just before the sump was removed, was it clean looking or dirty looking? And if they still have the oil, how much is there, does it look enough, and any bits of swarf in there?

And who are they expecting to pay for the bearings and labour ot refit? And are they gonna guarantee the work?

i cant think of a worce excuse...so the daily toil of speed bumps, cornering, breaking and accelerating didnt do it, but a simple oil change did?

i wouldn't accept that as a reason for the failer

Yeah and like driving your coop around for the last few months at up to 6.5k revs wouldn't have disturbed this sealant. No no it would need the gentle pouring in of fresh oil to do that! Sounds like a sh!te excuse to me

hi dave,

I dont believe me and paul removed the sump on that engine in any case.

your right though, the silicone cant have fallen off and into the oil feed. I apply it liberally, but its important to apply to the edge of the sump so its compresses outwards, enabling the excess to be be cut off with a blade.

In any case, the car has spun a shell as pictured caused by heat seizure so its evident to me that it may have been low on oil and the 2nd cylinder suffered first.

I hope the crank is in perfect condition otherwise

1. the new shells will die instantly
2. they'll die within a short period of time

A scored crank (even lightly) can cause the shells to pick up and induce spinning or just wear them out very quickly.

Personally i wouldnt dusturb any other shells if they are still white metal with no scoring.

I also hope they have measured up the crank for the correct shell sizes, otherwise oil pressure will be very different to before.

Dont accept this.. They are at fault the sump had never been off that engine, or at least not while I had it. Even so I wouldn’t say there is an excessive amount of sealant there, not for a coupe sump, and if they don’t apply a similar amount it will leak.

You can see where the shell has swelled from the expansion of the big end. You could pursue this and they would have to pay, there is so much evidence in your favour.

If that car has driven like this your turbo is likely to suffer as well, BUT if its just been left on idle and get up to temp you might be lucky.

I really think you should seek legal advice, they are pushing your car through and getting shells etc because they know they are liable and if they get the job turned around quick enough you won’t look into pursuing it.

Please seek legal advice. If that had happened to my coupe I would be wanting a replacement engine, these engines don’t like to be rebuilt at the bottom.

Ask them to stop work as you are seeking legal advice, they are booking hours and time on your car for you to pay.

sorry I wasn't insinuating that you had, just sharing your knowledge of the best way to seal the sump (mine's still leaking a bit )

I second the suggestion to get them to stop work and seek legal advice, there are people on here who can help perhaps (emjay?)

Looking at the state of that shell I'd say the crank journal would be fubar!

Fitting new shells will not sort this issue, I'll quote that same as Roger,

" 1. the new shells will die instantly
2. they'll die within a short period of time".

This engine will need a replacement crank and new shells.

has the cam belt ever snapped on this car?