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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Nigel]
#912799
06/10/2009 16:53
06/10/2009 16:53
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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so really 400bhp and 350lb-ft is where you want to stop. anything more is issues with other parts of the car. i can see how your car is safe luke due to the lower torque but how does it deal with the extra heat futher up the rev range and extra boost?
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#912814
06/10/2009 17:09
06/10/2009 17:09
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Squid
Unregistered
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Squid
Unregistered
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My car has monstrous levels of torque which is great fun, but I am starting a gearbox fund now, as I think it just a matter of time.
Oh, and Nigel, the Paddle clutches aren't 'that' bad. I am quite used to mine now...
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#912922
06/10/2009 19:29
06/10/2009 19:29
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Trickymex
Unregistered
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Trickymex
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After the piston melted, I went for a full rebuild with forged internals. My current spec is currently almost identical to TorboJ's as our engines were built side by side by TrickyMex. The only real difference between my spec and TuurboJ's is that I have more head work and a GT2871 wit the .86 housing. Currently at 420bhp and 416ft/lbs of Torque! Your c/r is slightly lower than jasons aswell mate I think there is more to come from your car still with a bit more mapping and now your intercooler has been cleaned out
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: barnacle]
#912923
06/10/2009 19:30
06/10/2009 19:30
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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I've driven paddle-clutched cars - I agree, they aren't horrible to drive, but compared with a "normal" clutch, they are difficult
On mine, I can slip the clutch in first or second gear and pull away without even touching the throttle - its very controllable.
With a paddle, it WILL be grabby, and at low revs, it will stall the engine, so you end up having to dial in 1500+ rpm just to move three feet in traffic.
Tiresome, especially with a 3" exhaust
Nope - I'll stick with my organic - if I need to cope with more power, I'll find a more controllable way, such as twin-plate
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Nigel]
#912925
06/10/2009 19:30
06/10/2009 19:30
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034 Sweden
Per
I need some sleep
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I need some sleep
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,034
Sweden
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Its just gearboxes you have to start worrying about! However, I still killed the synchro on 4th gear which required a gearbox strip & rebuild - thankfully, Trevor had a full set of internals lying around from his race car, so I did it on the cheap. Oh same here I think, now that I have a new clutch I know.. Synchro on 4th gear. Is it really worth it to rebuild, or is a new box cheaper?
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Flea]
#912941
06/10/2009 20:01
06/10/2009 20:01
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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I would also note that most "tuned" cars are killed by bad tuning. Too much boost, too much torque are the inherent danger for a standard piston and rod so we look to keep that in check, but when you start melting pistons, burning valves, bending rods, bending valves, spinning bearings... none of these are symptomatic of the "level" of tune, it's either a poor build, poor tuning, negligence or plain old bad luck.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Flea]
#913045
06/10/2009 21:49
06/10/2009 21:49
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Squid
Unregistered
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Squid
Unregistered
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I drove Marks car quite a lot when Joe had it and the clutch was horrible. I would not have lived with it. In fact it was one of the major reasons Joe sold the car.
However they really do mellow with age. And it is probably much better now. I am really happy with mine. It is much better than others I have driven, and I can even do hill starts quite happily.
Last edited by Squid; 07/10/2009 09:10.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913193
07/10/2009 07:04
07/10/2009 07:04
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Vas
Unregistered
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Vas
Unregistered
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on the paddle clutch issue, I've managed 20K km on JohnS s/h paddle clutch it is still hard, it is still grippy, yes you do need 1300-1500rpm to get the thing rolling and yes I avoid taking the car to Athens traffic jams. It does take a lot of abuse though and if you're happy doing 200kg on the leg press on the bench on the gym you should be fine V.
Last edited by Vas; 07/10/2009 07:04.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Cyclone]
#913289
07/10/2009 11:17
07/10/2009 11:17
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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just out of interest how much differance does say the extra 70-80 bhp on a coop? so rather than 400bhp like nigel and going full forge engine at great expense would it but worth the extra power and cost over say a safer 320-330 bhp? some people like nigel have said a decent well set up 320 bhp would beat his on twisties due to the less lag and more useable power range.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913314
07/10/2009 11:55
07/10/2009 11:55
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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Thanks again Leighton for the comments, I really do love the car I think I'm just being stupid even thinking of selling it. I may just turn it into a weekend car. Anyway I don't want to go off topic. The clutch has now done around 8k, I would say the clutch got 10 times better between 1k miles and 3k miles. I now don't like driving with normal clutches anymore. They just don't seem purposeful. In reply to peanuthead, my car makes around 380 at 1.25 bar. so at 1.1 bar (which I drive around with on most days) I will probably be making 360ish bhp. When I turn the boost up the difference is a world apart. Its probably more the jump in torque which makes it feel like that but it feels like a totally different car. Nigel is probably right about a car with a smaller turbo keeping up or being faster on twisties. But they would have to be quite tight twisties in my opinion. Don't forget if you go forged you usually have an extra 500+ rpm to play with as the limiter will be raised in most cases, so you just have to be a bit more clever with gear selection. As long as you can be on boost from second upwards then the more powerful car will be faster IMO. Also these larger turbo's aren't quite as "laggy" (boost threshold to keep Beggars happy ) as what people make out (unless you go too big). My 3071R doesn't seem to feel much different than the RS. Obviously I have things like raised CR and headwork but you should be getting these mods if you are going forged anyway.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913333
07/10/2009 12:19
07/10/2009 12:19
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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i see where you are coming from as i know it will be quiker and 70bhp is alot of power but it about 3k more to build so it would have to be worth it. so the main thing is if you make sure you stay on boost then you are ok but whats town driving like?
you would be nuts to sell now mate you really would be.
the head work would be a must for me as it makes the car run much better and you get better mpg when crusing
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913342
07/10/2009 12:31
07/10/2009 12:31
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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It probably isn't worth it, obviously it depends on what you want to do with your car and how long you want to keep it. I do want to compete in TOTB one year, so really I need the extra power. (I think that says I should keep it).
Town driving is fine, and it actually can be quite civilised. It drives great down the motorway and with only having to give a tiny bit of gas the 3" exhaust isn't even that boomy. Again though it depends on your tolerance levels with things like noise. I can live with them quite happily.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Nigel]
#913369
07/10/2009 13:09
07/10/2009 13:09
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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I've driven paddle-clutched cars - I agree, they aren't horrible to drive, but compared with a "normal" clutch, they are difficult
On mine, I can slip the clutch in first or second gear and pull away without even touching the throttle - its very controllable.
With a paddle, it WILL be grabby, and at low revs, it will stall the engine, so you end up having to dial in 1500+ rpm just to move three feet in traffic.
Tiresome, especially with a 3" exhaust
Nope - I'll stick with my organic - if I need to cope with more power, I'll find a more controllable way, such as twin-plate Single plate paddle clutches will always be a pain to use - though they do get a bit easier after a good thrashing, you can get the same or higher power potential from a Twin or triple plate, but you are looking at a grand plus...
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913371
07/10/2009 13:11
07/10/2009 13:11
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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A big factor with Eldino's car is that it is a 2.1? and the CR is higher, + also some headwork? This is all going to help getting a bigger turbo spinning...
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913378
07/10/2009 13:27
07/10/2009 13:27
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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about 2047cc I think it is! 9:1 CR and yep headwork
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913392
07/10/2009 14:05
07/10/2009 14:05
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Squid
Unregistered
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Squid
Unregistered
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The extra 47cc makes no difference in my opinion. The head work on my car seemed to make it much better off boost though. It is resonably civilised in town now. However,the biggest gripe I have with my car is the incredibly noisy 3" exhaust I have. It really annoys me
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913395
07/10/2009 14:14
07/10/2009 14:14
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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about 2047cc I think it is! 9:1 CR and yep headwork Yup - same as mine then - 83mm pistons @ 9:1 CR I've always said that a 300bhp Coupe is really not that far behind a 400bhp Coupe in the real world (ie away from the track or drag strip) At Curborough sprint course (VERY tight & twisty), Leighton's car was awful - it couldn't get on boost until halfway down the straight. Dave_t's car (small turbo - might even be standard) - was by far the fastest car there, mainly because of some well-considered handling mods and some trackday tyres If I were in Jules' position, I'd go for 330bhp on a small turbo and have the handling sorted - the car will be 90% as quick as a 400bhp car when on track, about the same as a 400bhp Coupe on a decent A road and quite possibly quicker on a twisty B road.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Nigel]
#913410
07/10/2009 14:54
07/10/2009 14:54
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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Dave's car is on a standard turbo and 1.2 bar.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: TurboNick]
#913420
07/10/2009 15:10
07/10/2009 15:10
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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peanuthead
Unregistered
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i am sure a 400bhp car will give you a much bigger kick in the back and the most roads i drive down are a roads or motorways so really 400bhp would be better for me but at a big cost
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913515
07/10/2009 17:11
07/10/2009 17:11
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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Don't get me wrong - 400bhp is HUGELY entertaining, but its not used all that often - I run at 1.2 bar for the daily slog, which probably equates to about 340 - 350bhp. Even at this lowly boost level, Its fast enough to destroy almost anything on the road, right up to M3s and most 911s. M5s and M6s need 1.5 bar and Ferrari 360s need a bit more. However, the power is at the top end and its VERY rare that I get to use the entire rev band. When you think about it, all I have to do is hit my (increased) redline in second gear and I've broken the motorway speed limit. If I do it in 3rd gear, I'm in ban territory. If I do it in 4th gear, I'm heading for serious trouble. If I do it in 5th or 6th, I'm looking at a custodial sentence Therefore, I'm VERY selective about when I chose to use the performance. At some rev points, a small turbo will be 50-75bhp UP on my power output, which makes it quicker (and easier to drive) on public roads I wouldn't swap mine for anything this side of JohnS or Taz's cars, but if I sold mine and fancied doing it all again, I'd do it differently. in fact - when I drove my son's 16v n/a, I found myself thinking "this is plenty for everyday driving". Its only 1% of the time that I can exploit the extra bhp, which means the £xx,xxx I've spent is pretty poor value for money And just to bring all of this into perspective.... back in 2002, when I had the 355, I went on a Coupe meet in East Anglia. On the drive through some gorgeous A and B roads, I had a play with a mildly-modded Coupe - perhaps 280bhp. I REALLY struggled to stay with him and couldn't have passed him if I'd wanted to. OK - he knew the roads and I didn't, but I was following, which is MUCH easier. I still maintain that a 300 - 330 bhp Coupe with good suspension and brakes will be just as quick as a 400bhp Coupe for 99% of the time. Only when the 400bhp car gets to use the full rev range will the difference be seen. Jules - save your money, get the car you showed me and take it to the SAFE limit of the standard internals, with a good GT turbo (GT28RSR??). Spend a few quid on suspension and brakes and drive it with the smug satisfaction that you're almost as quick as the big power cars, but you've spent just a couple of grand to get there. If the big power bug bites, you can always develop the car in stages, but I reckon you'll be happy below 350bhp
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Nigel]
#913598
07/10/2009 18:31
07/10/2009 18:31
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568 Berlin
barnacle
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
Forum Demigod
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
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in fact - when I drove my son's 16v n/a, I found myself thinking "this is plenty for everyday driving". Its only 1% of the time that I can exploit the extra bhp, which means the £xx,xxx I've spent is pretty poor value for money And therein the point, of course. In day-to-day driving, what matters is bottom end torque, not absolute power. It's the big V8 technique of being able to put your foot down and rip up the tarmac at slow speeds that shifts you... I might venture to suggest that a 1200 Mk1 Punto is probably quicker than the majority of coupes to 30mph; the coupe has barely woken up. Back in the day before Joe sold his car to Eldinho, he couldn't get away from me on the twisties... the shortest straight, and off he went, but while it was twisty, he was mine. And others who have been to Red Lion meets when we've had a run will testify that the 16NA does not hang around. Is it time for my perennial suggestion that the best mod for a 20vt might be a *smaller* turbo? Less top end power, but more torque at the bottom... it'd be spinning all the time. (I recall driving a 1050 turbo 127 - an absolute hoot!)
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: barnacle]
#913630
07/10/2009 19:04
07/10/2009 19:04
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eldinho
Unregistered
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eldinho
Unregistered
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can i just Nigel that Dave only beat my time at Curborough on his last run once I'd gone home, so to say his car was by far the the fastest is a bit unfair on myself and the others. My car was on fairly worn road tyres, i'm sure some sticky track tyres would have helped a fair bit. I was caught off boost a few times, but nothing too drastic. Nothing like the lagmeister was experiencing. Not taking anything away from dave though. Great car and some great driving
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: Flea]
#913644
07/10/2009 19:27
07/10/2009 19:27
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Trickymex
Unregistered
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Trickymex
Unregistered
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It's worth someone getting some dyno print outs of peoples coupes with different setups and over laying them to see where different setups are making there power in the rev range
It's quite interesting and can give a good idea of what setup suits
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: barnacle]
#913686
07/10/2009 20:16
07/10/2009 20:16
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Squid
Unregistered
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Squid
Unregistered
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Neil, your spending a bit too much time in the tuning section these days! Are you hankering after more power?
I must admit that I really liked my car when it had the GT28RS, but it went pop, so that's why I went the forged rebuilt route.
So, I suggest you go for no more than 320bhp, and just keep putting cash aside in case you break something expensive.
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Re: Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?
[Re: ]
#913693
07/10/2009 20:23
07/10/2009 20:23
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367 Staffordshire
Nigel
Forum veteran
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Forum veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
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Leighton - sorry - "awful" was a bit strong!. However, it was just a very graphic example of a big-turbo'd car on a very tight twisty track - it just never got into its stride, simply because it didn't get above 4k rpm until it was on the main straight. Mine wouldn't have been much better, so I doubt that Eldinho's would have been either. However, if we do the next FCCUK trackday at Silverstone, the results would be completely the opposite - Dave wouldn't see which way we went
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