Not knowing too much about mapping, I'm interesting in the down sides of custom mapping.

A friend has a golf TDI which was re-mapped which was impressivly fast, from what I understand the map is more aggresive than a factory standard, so sure, performance is better but aren't you just putting more wear onto parts/engine?

I ask, because so many coupe owners on here have had custom mapping, gaining performance increases on and off boost (on totally standard car as well) and also mention the safety aspects of correct air/fuel .. yet is the air/fuel mix only of interest if you have heavily modified your coupe? because surely a standard map is power/reliabilty balanced for a standard car. Surely if there was more power to gain from the map reliably, Fiat would have done that anyway?

I'm in two minds about getting a car map for my standard coupe (apart from a powerflow exhaust), on one hand the idea it appeals as from what I've read you can optimize the map for the car and yet part of me thinks you don't get something for nothing, more power = less reliability. and what happens if you need to replace the turbo on your car (I'd only replace with the standard), do you need to remap it again?

or have i totally got it wrong?!

hey if you are afraid from tuning let your engine and ecu like it is

If you swap a like for like part then the map should be fine if the part you swap was healthy when the car was mapped.
Things like the ignition advance can be changed and if you run on say 97 octane or better its fine and you get more power.
The manufactures have to worry about some one finding some low octane fuel, not servicing the car or driving it at 10,000 foot in 50°C heat.

the cars are built with the same bits but there is a manufacturing tolerance placed in there to allow for miss use, poor fuel, poor servicing and ultimately a longer living less stressed engine.

Mapping changes the ignition timing, fueling and boost levels, It will increase power but will do so at the expense of putting the engine under additional stress, as well as belts, clutches, gearboxes, Diffs ect

That said if the car is well services, looked after and not abused, let to warm up, cool down ect and treated as fiat intended. your not going to have any problems. Everything is moved to with in the outer edge of whats safe to run with day to day

eventually your removing the zone to a extent that fiat allowed for people not looking after the car as they should

Fiats prority would be fuel econemy, emisions and tractability before out and out performance

If you down the remapping route, Duncan, you ought to consider upgrading the suspension/ brakes etc on your car (seeing as it's standard right now).

As you know, in standard form, the car doesn't handle exactly brilliantly with 220bhp - let alone more.

Consider, also, how much you narrow your captive audience, come selling time. Maybe not that big a deal now, but may become so in time.

FWIW, I wouldn't touch it. And it's still my car, remember!

Cheers, Hedge

Well lets hold on here.

Firstly are you just wanting to map the standard car? If this is the case I would expect the car to make abit more power but overall run smoother and have better fuel efficency. Hardly bad things and very easy to reverse by swapping back to the original chip when its time to sell. Standard suspension should be fine as long as its in good nick and some good discs and pads are a must (IMO) anyway.

Now if you wanting to do more then thats a different matter....

End of the day its up to you - its your car, but if you have questions it probably a good idea to have a chat with Flea.

Leighton will be along soon, but as far as I'm concerned there are two reasons to map the car

1) The standard maps have to accomodate several things - high altitude, serious cold, really crappy fuel, poor servicing, dust, heat, humidity - all sorts of things. There's a very good chance that in the UK, we won't get anywher near the extremes that the car is capable of running in (minus twenty at 10,000 feet isn't going to happen ). A custom map can allow the engine to take advantage of the better fuel, lower altitude, temperate climate. and it USUALLY ends up with the car producing slightly more power, quite a bit more torque AND (as a bonus) the maps can be set to give a nice lean burn off boost, which helps fuel consumption.

2) The second reason is that when you're trying to maximise power (as I am), the standard maps are just too compromised. They have to work withing strict emissions parameters, give perfect tickover, instant throttle response, and work within a relatively low boost envelope. With a tuned engine, many of the primary requirements become secondard, and the purpose of the maps is to extract the maximum power (safely) at an increased boost level. This needs a very careful balancing of fuelling and ignition advance, and (in my opinion at least) this is where the mapper can earn his money, or blow his reputation (as well as a couple of engines)

So - whether you're going for a better-behaved standard car, or trying to maximise the power from a modded car, custom mapping is a great idea.

Leighton - I'll collect my commission later

EDIT - dammit, this thread was asking for the DOWNSIDES of mapping - er......

er...

right - there's two downsides - one minor, one (very) serious.

1) You might wear stuff out a bit faster
2) It will probably start you off on a modding spree. When you see how easy it was to go from 220bhp to 250bhp, you'll start thinking "Hmmm - 300bhp might feel nice..." And then it will be 350, then 400, and STILL I find myself wondering how I could get another 50bhp while still using it everyday. You have been warned

I would say if you are going to map your car make sure you know that your engine is in good condition to start with, do a compression and leakdown test on it first.
Also if it has been using semi-synthetic or mineral oil then expect there to be more wear already than if it lived on synthetic oils

Just to put it in terms of the common counter argument

As people have already said there are tolerances already built in to the standard car for poor fuel and extreme conditions. These tolerances are actually not doing you much good in the UK and mean your engine is running considerably less efficiently than it could be and consuming more fuel than it should be. The engine will run cleaner with the right ignition advance and there is less chance of heavy carbon deposits on the pistons. It has been well proven that there are massive tolerances already in every component of the engine.

Thanks for all the replies.

I intended on keeping this car standard from the outset it's just seeing some of the rolling road results afterwards always tempts me (Generally this always comes up in the pub with the guys talking about cars)

But for me personally, I always come back to:

1. The car has always been standard and there aren't many left that are
2. I don't want (more frequent) repair bills because I'm running the car (as Sam says) to the outer edge of the safety tolerances
3. re-sale value of the car, a lot of people are put off buying modified cars. I would alienate people looking for a good standard example.
4. Auxiliary belts, as Rog has said .. more power and the belt can't handle the brutal acceleration, the belt derails and you're left with a engine rebuild. Having read other forum members going through this with modified cars, I don't want to want to go down that road although I know it could happen on a standard car, I'm risking it more on a modified one
5. The engine was replaced with a brand new one from Fiat, having now only done 44k, it was one of the last engines left. one of the major selling points of the car, I don't really want to have to rebuild it through running the car modified and increasing the risk of something happening like point no.4

I certainly had no intention of modifying the car with higher specced turbos, FMICs etc. Although I did consider the custom mapping, not for out and out power but optimizing the car. I think reading through everyones replies, I will stick with my gut instinct of keeping this car mechanically standard.

Hedge, the one thing I will change is those 10k HIDS you put it, look very cool and I get kudos from the corsa boys when I go to halfords but terrible in the rain! When I see Rog@PowerItalia I will take him 6k's instead to install!

You can always have it mapped and keep the ignition timing/ boost standard?

You should get it on a Rolling Road to check the fuelling first though. It could well be running too rich/ too lean even as standard. By keeping standard boost and timing, you won't be putting any more stress on the engine, but will have safer fuelling, actually improving the safety.

A 'remapped' car isn't necessarily pushing the limits; you can always specify a very conservative map for safety

I agree with Trappy. You may have a low mileage engine but your fuelling could still be out so by taking it to Flea, you can be safe in the knowledge that your car has perfect fuelling and if the ever the need to redline the car arose, you will have the confidence to do so safely.

only downside of mapping aprat from obvious thing which is engine health is being in the wrong Mappers hands!!

Luke is right but thankfully we don't have to worry about handing our cars over to Flea as I'm sure 95% of people including the big power boys would use him.

as a standard 20vt (plus) owner and with the intention of it being a keeper, i fully understand your concerns duncan - and fair play to you if you decide to keep it standard and unmapped, that's your prerogative.

i recently had mine mapped by leighton (flea) after reading lots about what he does and what results he gets. but the main thing was, i wanted him to ensure for me that it was running safely.

he took it to the rolling road and discovered it was running very lean at the top end, so much so the injectors were maxxed out pretty much. as i understand it, this can lead to serious issues for your engine, including detonation. the fact that 6 hours later he handed it back to me running faster and smoother was a bonus, the major factors i discovered were the engine IS strong, and it WAS running dangerously lean. now it's running within very safe boundaries, so my objectives were achieved fully with the added bonus of extra power should i ever need it, which is unlikely. i certainly won't be going down the modding route i can guarantee that!

so you can be happy being unmapped, but i breath a sigh of relief that he found and rectified my lean-running issue - if you happen to have the same then it could be to your wallets' detriment for the sake of £140 or so.

Top post, Mr Proccy.

I would disagree with this. One of the key aspects to buying a good classic is matching numbers - i.e. the chassis number matches the engine number. THat is why people go to extreme lengths to rebuild old engines rather than buy a working one from another car.
And why did it need changing in the first place? Is the inherent cause still present on the car now?

I do agree that if you are keeping it as a classic it should be standard but in my book changing the engine means it will never hold that premium price.

1. all cars leave the factory with the same basic spec. mass produced with a mass produced ecu.
2. all cars are slightly different due to tolerances allowed on individual parts.
3. a proper professional custom remapper will ask you what you want, e.g max power, or just better throttle response & fuel efficiency etc, and will do this based on the individual characteristics of your car. Also he will not do anything if he notices any defects or concerns with your engine.
4. re-mapping a car will not cause extra wear and tear. this is caused by the person driving the car, and how aggressively they drive etc. As standard the suspension and brakes should be fine but it is usually recommended to at least upgrade your brakes. I would do this anyway even keeping tuning standard.
5. if you have any doubts, don't do it. When I bought my car I deliberately searched for a completely standard car so you have a valid point about future buyers, but if you just bought the car you should not be concerned with the next owner???

Right I was just thinking to myself that we all be honest with each other here. No matter how good the condition of your car you would probably make around £500 in the next 10 year If that. I would only keep this car standard if I wanted it like that and was planning never to sell. So in other word if your thinking to sell in the future as a classic then just sell it now and stop wasting your time. Otherwise just do whatever you like to it a remap isn't put any more wear on parts unless you have a really heavy foot for most of the day!

I would add that with the cost of motoring generally increasing anyway, price of fuel going up all the time, tax on 4x4's will surely move to performance motors eventually too, having to pay to use roads, the value of cars like this will not appreciate anyway. Strike me down if I'm wrong, but like John says if the car has a non-original engine anyway, you probably won't beat inflation on the value of the car.

Would it be fair to say that no-one buys these cars as an appreciating classic, just to enjoy as they are for what they are, and for some of us, to see what we can coax out of it for a bit of fun at the weekends?

If you've ever seen a car a being properly scrutineered at a concours-type event, you'll know how hard it is to get it rated as anything like original. A replacement engine means it MIGHT be in better nick than if it had the original, but in terms of putting off future buyers, I'd forget that.

And I think proccy's bang on in his comments re it makes it better. If you treasured a classic, you wouldn't miss a service, would you? Mapping can be a check that all is spot-on, in addtion to, and over and above, regular servicing.

I'd far rather have a brand new, original FIAT-supplied engine than rebuild one where the pistion melted (as happened here). Or whatever had happened to it.

It wouldn't hold "that premium price" because it had a new engine? Chassis-matching numbers/ originality aside, why wouldn't you take a new engine?

So, sorry, disagree. Just my 2p etc.

Cheers, Hedge

Just to add to the conversation, there's nothing wrong with used vs new, many engine builders who are putting together monster road/race engines will recommend a second hand block that has been through many hot/cold cycles so that it has found it's shape, then when it's skimmed or whatever, it's more likely to hold that correct shape and/or strength.

Hedge - I thought we were talking originality here, I thought that's what John was talking about. Yes, generally, a replacement recent engine is good, but not if you want to sell it down the line as original and unmolested...

my 2p....

i'd take a new engine over a rebuild if i could afford it, i have no issues with the non-matching scenario - but even with a new engine i'd get it mapped so that one was less inclined to go pop too..

Re long-cycle engines: back in the day, Mercedes used to get old taxis with half a million kilometers on them to rebuild the blocks as race engines. No creep left in those blocks!

Re the matching/non-matching... doesn't matter what we like, those who are into collecting and showing classics like original engines. But I'd rather have the engine I have in either of the coupes I have than the ones they left the factory with!

agreed, I will speak to Flea to get the fuelling checked and rolling roaded. As I said I'm not wanting to tune for an aggresive performance map, but like you Proccy, get it checked over

I was strongly advised to re-use my existing block for my last rebuild, as it has clearly donw well with up to 2 bar thrown at it

ISTR that BMW used to bury their 4-pot blocks for a couple of years before machining them ready for inclusion in their turbo F1 cars

I heard BMW left the M10 blocks outside exposed to the elements for a while.

I'd heard the myth that the BMW staff 'poured' ammonia on those blocks when they felt the need.

In an attempt to keep on topic, when the time allows I plan to get down to Mr Flea for some mapping.

I heard that they pee'd on them! But aren't we just slightly off topic!!

Anyway, car looks really well in your sig photo Duncan. Best of luck with her whatever you decide and safe driving.