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Vanos info?
#968194
18/01/2010 00:03
18/01/2010 00:03
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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Can anyone tell me on which RPM does vanos start and on which rpm does shut down on 20VT? I need this info because of VEMS ECU.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: Nigel]
#968444
18/01/2010 14:58
18/01/2010 14:58
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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I was referring to timing variator:) OK, got it Manual 20VTPage 6
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#968979
19/01/2010 10:16
19/01/2010 10:16
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Just a side note that Fiat have this setting spot on.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#969262
19/01/2010 17:00
19/01/2010 17:00
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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For now car is running fine on idle with Vems ECU. TurboJ I didn't understanded what you said about setting spot on. Can you please elaborate.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#969263
19/01/2010 17:02
19/01/2010 17:02
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728 N.E Scotland
mattB
Club member 6
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Club member 6
I AM a Coop
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,728
N.E Scotland
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He meant that you should use the same switching point (rpm) that Fiat used on the OE setup as it doesn't add anything by moving it higher or lower in the rev range.
Death-rattle-tastic
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#969364
19/01/2010 20:01
19/01/2010 20:01
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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I have tested the switch over point. A very simple test. I did a power run with the variator ON. Then did a power run with the variator OFF. Overlay the two graphs and the point they cross is where you switch over the variator. They crossed over at 4800rpm on my engine so spot on.
Try this test for yourself next time it’s on the dyno.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#969575
20/01/2010 02:12
20/01/2010 02:12
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Gumetina
Unregistered
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Gumetina
Unregistered
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So it is not powered on idle ? just of idle until 4800rpm ?
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#969673
20/01/2010 10:40
20/01/2010 10:40
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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On idle it should be off... proposal: take a voltmeter and measure the voltage on the variator during various rpm. it should be on (about 12V) over idle up to 4800rpm and off at idle and >4800rpm.
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: Stichl]
#969990
20/01/2010 18:06
20/01/2010 18:06
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Gumetina
Unregistered
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Gumetina
Unregistered
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That makes it completly clear Thanks ! p.s. i would measure it over a standard bosch motronic coupe, if i had one anywhere nearby in serbia there are all 3-4 operational 20v turbos Regards, RAle
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: Stichl]
#970260
21/01/2010 08:48
21/01/2010 08:48
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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On idle it should be off... proposal: take a voltmeter and measure the voltage on the variator during various rpm. it should be on (about 12V) over idle up to 4800rpm and off at idle and >4800rpm. Its the other way round at idle its off.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#970965
22/01/2010 08:06
22/01/2010 08:06
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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On idle it should be off... proposal: take a voltmeter and measure the voltage on the variator during various rpm. it should be on (about 12V) over idle up to 4800rpm and off at idle and >4800rpm. Its the other way round at idle its off. Eeeeh?! I think I told the same?! On idle the variator is off, means you will measure 0V at the variator. When reving the engine over idle up to 4800rpm, you will find a voltage of 12V on the variator, means ON. From 4800 to the end you will find 0V again, means OFF. TurboJ - can you confirm this?! Thanks Juergen
Last edited by Stichl; 22/01/2010 08:07.
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: Stichl]
#971089
22/01/2010 12:08
22/01/2010 12:08
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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For some reason I think the manual is mistaken as when I remember setting mine up it was the other way round to what the manual says. Have a look at page 37. I could be wrong but I think the relay works the other way round, best thing to do it check my settings. When I get a moment I’ll check this for you and confirm.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#972616
25/01/2010 09:42
25/01/2010 09:42
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286 Germany
Stichl
Making a profit
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Making a profit
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 286
Germany
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For some reason I think the manual is mistaken as when I remember setting mine up it was the other way round to what the manual says. Have a look at page 37. I could be wrong but I think the relay works the other way round, best thing to do it check my settings. When I get a moment I’ll check this for you and confirm. Would be nice. Unfortunately I do not have an original ECU any more to do some measurements.
20VT coupegrale 4x4
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: Stichl]
#973496
26/01/2010 18:41
26/01/2010 18:41
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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TurboJ did you maybe checked your settings? Can someone please post specification for OEM camshafts for 20VT. Is the camshaft locking tool same for 20VT and Alfa Romeo 156, 2.0TS. I'm asking this because I read this info somewhere, I can't recall where. What is the correct part number for locking tool in case of Laser tool product, 3636?
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#974374
28/01/2010 01:04
28/01/2010 01:04
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#974546
28/01/2010 11:54
28/01/2010 11:54
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Sorry dude my car is in one place and my tools are somewhere else. My car doesn’t drive right now so I am unable to test this for you quickly.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#974602
28/01/2010 13:11
28/01/2010 13:11
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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Thanks anyway. Anyone comment about other points, I would really appreciate. I'm having issues with camshaft and correct mapping with VEMS.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#975037
29/01/2010 04:08
29/01/2010 04:08
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581 Taiwan
DavidL
Enjoying the ride
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Enjoying the ride
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 581
Taiwan
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Basically, the timing variator is off at idle to achieve a wider lobe separation angle, which improves idle quality. Effects of lobe separation angle Tighter lobe separation angleThe reason for the variator to tick over when you press the throttle is to reduce turbo lag. If we look at the timing chart, we will see that at the on position, the intake cams are open earlier and closed earlier, this will allow the cylinder to build up a higher compression(just like when you seal up a syringe just before you reach the full length, but of course, in internal combustion engine, these's the supercharging effect which increases the VE of the engine). This in turn will reduce the turbo lag. However, this is also the region where most 20VT experiences knock, so the OE chip have turned it off after 4800 rpm, for the Novitec chip, they turned it off at 4000 rpm. All turbo charged vehicle are knock limited at mid revs some how. Wider lobe separation angleWhen the engine reaches 4800 rpm (4000 rpm for Novitec chip), the turbo is already in full boost, so it closes and changes the timing to late opening and closing to allow the turbo to pack in more air. This shifts the power band upwards.This is the reason why the 20VT have a wider power band than the 16VT. Having said that, I'm using a SMC industrial pressure switch(accurate to 0.01 bar) to turn off the variator when it reaches a boost of 1 BAR, in different gear, the best switch over point is different, so using the boost level as the indicator is better than a fixed rpm. The OE setting is based on rpm (i.e. 4800rpm) coz it does not have a pressure sensor to "see" the actual pressure, it only utilizes the pieberg solenoid to control the turbo boost. IHMO, all tuning related to a turbocharged vehicle should be referenced to the boost level and not the rpm as you can be doing 5000 rpm with zero boost and 3000 rpm with 1.5 bar.
Last edited by DavidL; 29/01/2010 04:47.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: DavidL]
#984801
16/02/2010 01:08
16/02/2010 01:08
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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Can someone please post specification for OEM 20VT camshafts? I've found some data but it is not same on both places I've found. Also when timing variator is turned on what influence does it have on camshafts, I need that spec. aswell. Thank you
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1081211
05/08/2010 01:00
05/08/2010 01:00
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Mare
Unregistered
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Mare
Unregistered
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I didn't want to start new topic....question is since we were talking only about taming variator through RPM (when off, when on) what about throttle position? Does it affect timing variator? Btw, I've fitted C&B meanwhile
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1081641
05/08/2010 18:46
05/08/2010 18:46
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k20vt
Unregistered
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k20vt
Unregistered
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I have problem with my variator. It switch off rightly at 3000 rpm with OEM chip and with Gtec2 chip also. Where is problem :(( ?
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1081663
05/08/2010 19:07
05/08/2010 19:07
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1081699
05/08/2010 19:46
05/08/2010 19:46
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k20vt
Unregistered
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k20vt
Unregistered
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Sorry, my English is bad. My variator solenoid turned it off at 3000 rpm. but in Coupe service manual is writing at 4800 rpm on OE chip. It`s not all right.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1081814
05/08/2010 22:34
05/08/2010 22:34
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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How do you know the variator is switching off at 3000 rpm? How are you measuring that it is doing this?
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1081987
06/08/2010 09:55
06/08/2010 09:55
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k20vt
Unregistered
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k20vt
Unregistered
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I measured voltage (voltmeter) on the variator during various rpm. On idle 0V and over idle up to 3000rpm 12V+. Over 3000rpm 0V up to limiter.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1081989
06/08/2010 09:56
06/08/2010 09:56
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k20vt
Unregistered
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k20vt
Unregistered
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1082025
06/08/2010 10:23
06/08/2010 10:23
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Well if you are certain it is 3000rpm and not 4800rpm then do the same test but this time remove the vairator relay and measure the voltage on pin 52 of the ECU and report the results back here.
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Re: Vanos info?
[Re: ]
#1082655
07/08/2010 17:13
07/08/2010 17:13
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k20vt
Unregistered
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k20vt
Unregistered
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Thanks, I will try this early.
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