well the time came today to finally put the key in the ignition and try and bring back to life my rebuilt 16vt........
But Nooooooooo!
won't start! So so close to firing but never quite got there! BUGGER!

More than one person has came to the conclusion its the cam timing, so going have to wait for the guy who actually rebuilt the lump to make an appearance monday to see if he can sort it!

Regarding the timing.... I'm running columbo & bariani lancia delta 16v turbo Max fast road cams.... Surely they can get the relevant timing's off the C&B website and all will be hunky doory?
or is it not that simple?

Nick

Do you think he may have timed the cams as per standard cams?

No mate that's not the case as he must have tried this at some point as he specificly said the valves Hit with the original fiat timing!
would he have just tried to time it up by himself.... Is that even possible?
the trouble is that the guy who built it never actually stripped it originally otherwise he would obviously Marked it up!
really frustrating..... Was hoping to get it back, run in and flea mapped all in time to go watch Nigel at TOTB..... Don't really wanna drive my work van there Lol..... Still do-able i suppose?!

Nick

Do you have a widget or anything of the like? If your lucky it may just be a timing sensor is off.

no matey... No widget! I hope your right

well i'm off to the south of France in the morn.... A little LESS relaxed than i could have been.... Lol...
back late monday afternoon.. Straight off the plane straight on the phone to see if its been sorted! Fingers crossed!

i'll update this thread asap... Hopefuly its just a small teething problem!

Nick

C&B Maximum fast road cams shouldn't have been a problem timed up using the original timing marks.

Really? God knows what's he's done then.......
really hope its good news when i ring up on monday?
if not...... It maybe engine out again!
Beautiful.... F###ing beautiful!

Nick

Why do people think its the cams?

Have you made all the usual fuel system/ignition system checks? ie. all injectors plugged in, fuel getting to fuel rail, ht leads on right way round, etc. etc.

i don't know why they think this buddy? But atleast 3 different
guys have said the same thing.... One of whom is an absolute guru on lancia delta intergrale's... Guy called Tank Barret!
i'm presuming they've done the usual checks you mentioned?
i went down last night to have a look and everything looks and sounds (noise of fuel pump) as it should be ready for start up??

nick

i would get them to show you that its sparking and there is fuel coming out.

i know it sounds mad but may be a you tube clip of what the car is doing on turn over may help people get the right idea of whats going on..

i have no clue about timing the C&B cams up... fingers crossed you can get it sorted.

why not down load barnacles software and buy the leads off ebay and check for fault??

i'll wait and see what i come back to monday first dude...
if probably persists dowloading barnacles software sounds like a good option!

nick

mate, you must be going mad.

also, get them to check every thing again.

fingers crossed its just some thing stupid like a sensor.

most people jump conclusions...like the cams, becasue there hard to time up and they had to fiddle with them they instantly think thats the problem!!

good luck!

cheers buddy!

Nick

From the C&B site if you look.

HOW SHALL YOUR CAMSHAFTS BE FITTED?
Colombo & Bariani camshafts can be fitted utilizing exactly the original reference marks.For inlet camshafts with phase variator specific fitting instructions are included in the kit.

They might be 180* out?

100% sure you have the coil connection on the right coil, swap them round and give it another try just in case.

I doubt its that, I did that to my 16VT before and the engine ran fine, started perfectly. Just went into limp mode with a 4k rpm limiter.

Well got back to find out that timing is spot on and that car has been running but pretty rough..... It seems my cam shaft sensor is in a sorry state..... Replacement to be fitted Wednesday !
Hopefully she'll run a lot better then?

Nick

Good man Nick, all sounds positive now at least

Yeah seems a little more positive.... Can't to hear her up and running properly! Been COOPLESS for nearly a year now!
Mind you it was longer than that the first time it was rebuilt!
Infact....... I've just realised in all the time I've owned it it's been off the road more than on......

nick

But soon it will all be worth it. Good too hear you/they have found the problem.

well she breathed today..... heard her fired up for the first time.... sound rough at mo though as downpipe is severely blowing... flange needs re-welding at slight different angle!

there is one thing that is baffleing the garage though.. since fitting new cam phase sensor engine will not turn over with it connected?
Strangely though it WILL fire with cam sensor disconnected??
there is very slight misfire on revving also but revs come down very smoothly... could this be due to old fuel.... fuel is probably about 6 months old!
To eliminate this i plan to drain fuel tommorrow and Get a clean tank of fuel and was thinking of putting some injector cleaner in there, will this be ok?

The cam sensor thing is baffleing though, do we think it needs adjusting i.e twisting slightly or could dirty fuel be the main problem?
(SOOOOOOOO CLOSE)

Nick

Hi, as I said in the PM, the cam sensor is only used during the starting phase, so it won't be the cause of the rough running.

I'll try to to a picture of my cam sensor tomorrow so, with any luck, you'll be able to see its orientation and get it starting properly.

I think draining the fuel is a good idea, as long as you haven't got 50 quid's worth in there!

Personally I'd be more inclined to suspect the engine builders haven't timed up the cams quite right. Have you personally checked the timing marks on all three pulleys? Have they adjusted the vernier pulleys (if fitted)? Either that or they haven't quite put something else back together right. Not saying this garage are numpties, just these things are easily missed - it's very rare that an engine fires up first time after a rebuild perfectly without any problems!

the cam timing has been checked and re checked and they are spot on......
i'm hoping it the fuel or could i have a bad earth?
my current boost controller is also disconnected at mo, i don't suppose that has any bearing on it?

so is the the cam phase sensor in the wrong position then as it won't start when connected?

nick

the cam timing has been checked and re checked and they are spot on......
Okay good that rules that out
i'm hoping it the fuel or could i have a bad earth?
Could be either will have to try one, then the other

my current boost controller is also disconnected at mo, i don't suppose that has any bearing on it?
doubtable. Is it electrically disconnected, or are the pipes loose? Though if the small pipes are loose, the most affect it should have would be to make the car idle a bit quicker

so is the the cam phase sensor in the wrong position then as it won't start when connected?
Sounds very much like it. If the car starts with trouble when the sensor is disconnected, but won't start at all when the sensor is connected, then the sensor is almost certainly at fault.
Also, have you checked the crank sensor?

Hey Nick, any new news?

Here you go. Pics as promised. Adjust the cam sensor to the position shown.


I dunno, Taking time out of my day off. I'm so good to you!

sorry kj..... I hadn't even realised you'd posted some pics... Sorry...lol!

anyways.... UPDATE (still baffled)!

car still won't start with cam sensor connected but does just about catch after a good few tries!
its been decided the car is running stupidly rich at anything below 2000 revs and will not idle on it own! Once reved beyond this it revs up beautifully!
we know its rich as they put new spark plugs in when i was there and after showing me the problem with the idle, we pulled a plug out and it was literally BLACK!

they think its because i have much larger injectors in but i explained to them that the car was mapped to those injectors by flea before.... And now the car is not THAT MUCH dynamically different....... Although... When flea mapped it my compresions were whey down on what they should have been on all 4 pots?
now running slightly larger turbo but i suppose that will have no bearing on idle anyways?

also injector light is staying on on start up..... Had this probably before when throttle position sensor was not wired in properly!

Only need to sort this idle problem now... So can anyone think of a reason?? Would it overfuel for any reason if something wasn't connected right?

HELP

Nick

could having the cam sensor disconnected on start up put the car into 'limp mode'.....?

desperately need some answers peeps!

nick

morning peeps!....

No ideas then?.... I promised the garage a few possible answers this morning after i'd asked the forum guru's last night...... Is everyone baffled??

nick

Having the cam sensor disconnected doesn't seem to put it into limp mode. I once drove around for a couple of days without realising I'd disconnected it! The only difference was the car was very hard to start.

That fact that you say the car revs well after 2000 rpm makes me think it's more likely an ignition fault then a fuel fault.

Do all of these things in order and tell me what happened after each one.

>Pull all four plugs. Are they all black or just one? Just one points to an injector fault. All four more likely fueling fault, or ignition fault. Before you refit them clean them or they won't spark properly and exacerbate the problem. Any difference?

>Replace all four HT leads with new ones. Just any that fit for now.

>Disconnect the battery negative terminal and then the ecu connector. When you reconnect them the fuel trims will be reset. Any difference? (TBH, if you've had the engine out for months, the fuel trim should already be reset)

>Disconnect the green plug from the lambda sensor. Again any difference with it disconnected?

>Can you get a gauge on there to check fuel pressure?
What FPR do you have, is it an adjustable one?

>I left these till last because you'll probably have to order these and wait for them to come:

>Try a new coil pack and new, er, ignition 'thingie' I can't remember what it's called! The thing with the two connector that sits in front of the battery.

BTW I hope you aren't paying your garage much, These are just basic fuel/ignition system checks. Your garage should have bloody checked these things themselves
No offence to you at all. This is what you pay them for.

thanks for your input kj.....
when you say fuel trims will be reset...
reset to what Flea set them at, or back to a 'Factory setting'? If a factory setting then that will be the probably as i have 670 injectors in?

one other thing..... When they were first
trying to start the car someone spotted that the earth cable from my fuel pump with live feed was not connected....(I can only assume its been like that for a while?) Although it seemed the pump was still priming..... Would this in some way INCREASED the flow of the pump now its been Earthed properly?

Nick