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Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs #1154385
09/01/2011 23:41
09/01/2011 23:41
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Rudidudi Offline
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Rudidudi  Offline
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Enjoy folks

(From MLR)
Quote:
There are to be some changes to the MOT test from 1st January 2012 which are being introduced in response to European Commission Directive 2010/48/EU of the 5th July 2010 and which will effect those with aftermarket HID headlights and remapped ECUs:

4.1.4 Compliance with requirements:
(a) Lamp, emitted colour, position or intensity not in accordance with the requirements
(b) Products on lens or light source which obviously reduce light intensity or change emitted colour
© Light source and lamp not compatible

4.1.5. Levelling devices (where mandatory):
(a) Device not operating.
(b) Manual device cannot be operated from driver’s seat.

4.1.6 Headlamp cleaning device (where mandatory):
Device not operating.

For anyone with a remap, section 6.1.9 may be relevant.

6.1.9 Engine performance:
(a) Control unit illegal modified.
(b) Illegal engine modification.

(by 'illegal', it is assumed that they mean changed/programmed differently from OEM specifications)

There will also be a new check on the general condition of the wiring:

4.11. Electrical wiring
(a) Wiring insecure or not adequately secured.
(b) Wiring deteriorated.
© Damaged or deteriorated insulation

and on the function of airbag and seat belt pre-tensioner systems:

7.1.4. Safety belt Pre-tensioners:
Pre-tensioner obviously missing or not suitable with the vehicle.

7.1.5. Airbag:
(a) Airbags obviously missing or not suitable with the vehicle.
(b) Airbag obviously non-operative.

7.1.6. SRS Systems:
SRS MIL indicates any kind of failure of the system.

Originally Posted by VOSA
The car/light goods vehicle MOT test is about to change – the European Commission has changed the Directive that covers it. We take a look at when these changes are likely to come into effect and what they mean for MOT testers.
Britain has been testing vehicles under the MOT scheme for 50 years now. Last year, the European Directive covering the MOT test was updated and revised by a modern version called 2009/40/ EC. This was then updated by 2010/48/EU, which was ratified on 5 July this year.
The new Directive keeps the EU minimum 4-2-2 test frequency but adds a number of new elements to the British MOT test. The Directive anticipates all test changes being in place by 1 January 2012, and a common European approach to test certificates in place by 1 January 2014. So what is VOSA doing to introduce the changes?
In terms of test frequency, in mid-July the coalition government confirmed that it intends ‘to look at the issue of MOT test frequencies later this year’. VOSA contributed statistical data to inform the last review in 2008, and we expect that our computer system and the data you have entered will be utilised again in much the same way.
We expect to hear more details of the government’s review proposals later in the year.
As far as changes to the test content are concerned, VOSA has already been analysing the requirements of the new Directive and working out how to implement them. We started this earlier in the year by talking with representatives of the MOT trade at our regular Trade User Group and VTS Council meetings. Both VOSA and the Department for Transport (DfT) are keen to ensure that any changes to the test are introduced in as practical a way as possible, keeping the burden on the trade to a minimum and ideally keeping the changes cost neutral.
In many cases, the changes shouldn’t necessarily lead to an increase in average test times. A good example is the malfunction indicator lamps on the dashboard that indicate defective electronic power steering, electronic stability control and secondary restraint systems. Testers already check the dashboard for other lamps, so no extra time would be required for this addition to the test.
Electrical wiring and batteries are now included in the test’s scope, but testers already check the vehicle structure where wiring is secured – often along the same routes as other testable items, such as brake pipes in the engine compartment. So again, this doesn’t look like an additional burden on the tester. In the pre-computerisation days, testers often (wrongly) failed vehicles for insecure batteries, so they must have been looking at them then! Now, it means that when we implement the new Directive, vehicles can legitimately fail for battery insecurity, for no extra tester effort.
Other items – such as headlamp bulb and unit incompatibility, headlamp levelling devices and illegal engine ‘chipping’ – will need further thought before we can get a workable solution for MOT stations.
Some of the new items may require extra effort on the part of the tester – when we know for sure what that is we’ll be talking again with our trade and DfT colleagues to work out what the impact will be.
The common EU test certificate should be relatively easy to achieve – the only data that the Directive expects and that we don’t currently provide is the symbol for the vehicle’s country of origin. Probably 99% of vehicles tested will have
‘UK’ entered here, but if you do test vehicles with a foreign plate, you will need to enter the correct country symbol. We may even be able to make this change earlier if there is a convenient opportunity.
The MOT trade can rest assured that VOSA is working closely with you to introduce any new elements as efficiently and effectively as possible, with the minimum of fuss. Just as importantly, we are also working closely with Siemens to ensure that any system changes due on New Year’s Eve 2011 go smoothly! We should know more by the time the MOT seminars take place – come along and ask the experts.

directive
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2010:173:0047:0072:EN:PDF

page 8
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repositor...Oct%202010.pdf


from a poster on MLR

Quote:
Ecu remaps will not fail an MOT under the new legislation. For one it's far too expensive to buy the equipment necessary to read all the different OEM and Aftermarket ecus. What VOSA are concentrating on are piggyback units and how the are installed.

There has been lots of talk regarding the new items that are going to be included in the annual MOT test from the 01st January 2012.


We have put together this document to put at rest the forum talk over “illegal” ECU chipping.


The EU have put into place a new directive, number 2010/48/EU which is a revised directive of 2009/40/EU. This will come into force as of the 01st January 2012. The items to be included in the annual MOT from this directive are as follows:

Airbag warning lights
MIL lights
Seat belt pre-tensioners
Battery security
Wiring looms
Headlamp bulb and unit incompatibility
Illegal engine 'chipping'
New diesel emission limits for vehicles registered on or after the 01st July 2008

The main subject that has had major discussion is the illegal engine chipping which we will try and explain what the UK might adopt in the process of the inspection during the MOT.


There are some tuning companies that supply tuning boxes that work as a 'piggy' back to the ECU or connected somewhere in the fuel system. These types of tuning boxes will be easy to pick up on the MOT by a Nominated Tester (NT) and will be failed under the new rules.


The other tuning companies that use the OBD to access the ECU to carry out a remap, will be ok when it comes to the MOT as there are no signs of modifications. The only time that this type of tuning will become a problem is if the software that is used is poorly written and clearly has no respect for emissions levels or smoke levels on diesels and will fail the basic emissions tests.


A visual check should be the method of inspection that may be introduced by the Department for Transport (DfT), and the same rule that applies now with regards to 'no dismantling' will still be there. There is however a huge flaw in this, if a car has had a damaged ECU and this has been replaced with obvious signs then this would be classed as a fail. If the ECU is tuned and replaced in the car correctly with all the correct anti tamper bolts this is a pass.


The DfT are also unlikely to introduce any new tool to the MOT to check ECU's via the OBD. Such a tool will be very costly and if brought in will mean an increase in the MOT fee which is currently at £54.85 for class 4 (other fees are different dependant on test class). We would estimate that the test fee would need to go up by 50 - 100% in order to cover costs of the tool and the extra time taken for the test, the logistics of this would also be prohibitive meaning every manufacturer would need to submit their entire database of standard files accessible to a system the DfT would have to develop to check this and service 19000+ outlets. For all these reasons, OBD tuning will not be checked.


Vehicles are built to a type approval standard and when chipped some EU States believe this defeats the object of the approval in regards to emissions. At present the emissions test is only carried out with no load on the engine. The DfT may bring in something to the MOT test to check emissions under load but again this is very unlikely due to the time needed and the NT having to take the vehicle out on a road test.


So in summary.....


Any vehicle that has a remap/chip will and can be failed under new proposals. As long as you have a OBD, chip, direct bench flash remap and no tampering is obvious to the ECU as well as the vehicle passing its emissions test, you will be fine and your beloved vehicle will pass year after year.


If you have bought a plug in tuning box you will find it hard to get an MOT pass as the NT will see it and then fail the vehicle.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: Rudidudi] #1154399
09/01/2011 23:57
09/01/2011 23:57

K
karl_20VT
Unregistered
karl_20VT
Unregistered
K



very interesting read.

imo most of the above couldn't be enforced for obvious logistical, finacial and commercial reasons.

its unclar as well as to what age of car this will apply to, ie from cars manufactured after 2012?
They surely can't back track over the last 10-15 years of millions of cars???
Simular to the seatbelts rule.
In 1972? (i think) seatbelts became part of the mot test however all cars pre 1972? do not require seatbelts (however if fitted must work).
ie, we have a 1959 Cadilliac which has no sealtbelts and passed time and time again.
Also, cat converter in 1992, same story.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: Rudidudi] #1154400
09/01/2011 23:57
09/01/2011 23:57

M
MattW
Unregistered
MattW
Unregistered
M



I can see a lot of people putting standard lights in for the MOT and switching straight back to HIDs again afterwards. laugh

Anyone with a flea map will be fine as he just changes the data on the chip, he doesnt bolt anything extra on to make it look any different than normal

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1154403
10/01/2011 00:11
10/01/2011 00:11

K
karl_20VT
Unregistered
karl_20VT
Unregistered
K



Having a think about it, this is just a STEALTH TAX.

Thi is just another reason to increase MOT's and Road tax.



lol so lets say they do enforce this.

MOT time will consist of (for me):
Removing De-cat and replace with normal CAT.
Remove HID's and replace with standard bulbs (less safe?)
Remove Widget (as this obviously is something connected to the ECU)
Remove aftermarket Steering Wheel and replace with standard one so air bag light goes off.
should I mention GT28rs, FMIC adn some serious evidence of tampering (*Tinkering)

(all above based on my 97 inky frown )

How will you eat yours? prepare yours?

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: MarioCirillo] #1154409
10/01/2011 00:33
10/01/2011 00:33
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Rudidudi Offline
My life on the forum
Rudidudi  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Originally Posted By: MarioCirillo
I think they need to define Illegal Chippin before we jump to conclusions. Otherwise what they are saying is a ban on Modified Cars... which realistically isnt going to happen!


i dont see it like that, banning modified cars is easily a possibility. what benefit does the modified car market bring to govt? none.

look at the italian 'collaudo' (mot), forget bringing a modified car, it'll fail even if the tyres arent standard sizes.

on the flip side there are lots of benefits to not allowing modded cars.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: Rudidudi] #1154414
10/01/2011 01:33
10/01/2011 01:33

P
Paul_H
Unregistered
Paul_H
Unregistered
P



Originally Posted By: Rudidudi
what benefit does the modified car market bring to govt? none.


TAX wink

modifying is big business on this little island, lots and lots of VAT to be had from all the modifying that goes on, not to mention increased fuel consumption leading to more tax, and the number of people employed in it who pay income tax etc etc etc

Paul

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1154420
10/01/2011 02:48
10/01/2011 02:48

M
MattW
Unregistered
MattW
Unregistered
M



Lots of businesses would go under if all cars had to be completely standard, with the resulting loss of jobs and loss of support for the politicians who implemented it.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1154510
10/01/2011 13:08
10/01/2011 13:08

R
rudkin_20vt
Unregistered
rudkin_20vt
Unregistered
R



Originally Posted By: Paul_H
Originally Posted By: Rudidudi
what benefit does the modified car market bring to govt? none.


TAX wink

modifying is big business on this little island, lots and lots of VAT to be had from all the modifying that goes on, not to mention increased fuel consumption leading to more tax, and the number of people employed in it who pay income tax etc etc etc

Paul

Hit the nail on the head there! Makes me sick that the government dont actually give a shit about anything its just money money money and the best excuse to take it from us ie the environment, speed cameras etc etc

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1154513
10/01/2011 13:12
10/01/2011 13:12

R
rudkin_20vt
Unregistered
rudkin_20vt
Unregistered
R



Also what gives them the right to take away our right to modify our cars? Because it makes them dangerous? I think I would fancy my chances with grooved discs and yellow stuff pads and coilover over standard parts if I was needing to stop to avoid an accident! Cant pull the environment card either as im pretty sure the mp's jags and 4x4's give out more co2 than a coupe!

Rant over laugh

Last edited by rudkin_20vt; 10/01/2011 13:14.
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1154774
10/01/2011 21:35
10/01/2011 21:35

J
Jef_uk
Unregistered
Jef_uk
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By: rudkin_20vt
Also what gives them the right to take away our right to modify our cars? ....


Yes because modified is far more dangerous than the drunk with the slicks and no insurance.

All the police would have to do is have a look at the cars parked in Warrington Tesco car park to find at least 1 car a day with bald tires. most seem to be disabled or have child seat.
Not that I am stereotyping they are maybe just the one around the door.

Last edited by Jef_uk; 10/01/2011 21:36. Reason: balled lol @ me
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1154933
11/01/2011 10:43
11/01/2011 10:43
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,704
Harpenden
S
sugerbear Offline
Je suis un Coupé
sugerbear  Offline
Je suis un Coupé
S

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,704
Harpenden
Since when has it been "illegal" to modify an ECU ?

Its not illegal to modify the ECUU, its illegal to modify car / ECU and not tell your insurance.

You have signed nothing in contract between you and the manufacturer of the vehicle and there is nothing in law to stop you modifying your car. So unless a law is introduced that specifically makes it illegal to modify/ecu then you are free to add/replace and manipulate the ECU as you see fit (as long as you tell your insurance company of course).


How to make a startrek widget cable >> http://tinyurl.com/dyje6fy
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: sugerbear] #1154965
11/01/2011 11:52
11/01/2011 11:52

N
Nobby
Unregistered
Nobby
Unregistered
N



Hmm.....

I hope they don't think that my Apexi is a ECU chipping device (as it uses feeds from the ECU to work). Does anyone now how all the jap tuning boxes work (Apexi Power Commander etc..) as surely this might fall under the same thing.

Not a good sign for Dastek unichips either.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155331
11/01/2011 23:44
11/01/2011 23:44

J
Jef_uk
Unregistered
Jef_uk
Unregistered
J



Yeah I am wondering about my alarm as well as this is wired in to the code box and the ecu.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155355
12/01/2011 01:00
12/01/2011 01:00
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,937
North wales
pinin_prestatyn Offline
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IMO it looks like we're moving slowly towards the Swiss MOT system, where any mods is an instant fail. This will come in a little at a time, chipping away until it's too late!



Coopless!
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: pinin_prestatyn] #1155400
12/01/2011 09:04
12/01/2011 09:04
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
barnacle Online happy
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
barnacle  Online Happy
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Forum Demigod

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
There are still kit cars...


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: barnacle] #1155405
12/01/2011 09:20
12/01/2011 09:20

R
Richcoupe
Unregistered
Richcoupe
Unregistered
R



I think there is a little vagueness still surrounding these changes. Firstly, a lot of ECU's are buried well within the depths of the car, and hard to locate easily, therefore under VOSA ruling, considering the NT cannot disassemble the car to locate things, it has to be taken at face value, and the NT at worst can only advise that the ECU cannot be located. The rule about plug and play chips however is more likely as a lot of them come from unknown backgrounds, and are relatively unproven, and can be fitted by monkeys. I can only see the real objections being emission related, and is more likely to be due to the roll out of the new Euro V emission regulations, which will only effect new vehicles. Simply put, the Coupe's are safe smile

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155423
12/01/2011 10:25
12/01/2011 10:25

N
Nello
Unregistered
Nello
Unregistered
N



If this is true it absolutley ridiculous......My factory Bulbs were dangerous. I was actually braking mid-corner in the dark as I could not see the exits...... HIDS have definately improved safety.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155426
12/01/2011 10:32
12/01/2011 10:32

R
Richcoupe
Unregistered
Richcoupe
Unregistered
R



The only issues surrounding HID's is the colour temperature which basically is an indication of colour and brightness. as lonjg as they're within legal limits then they're perfectly legal.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155429
12/01/2011 10:39
12/01/2011 10:39
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 9,729
Zele, Belgium
Kayjey Offline
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Kayjey  Offline
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Posts: 9,729
Zele, Belgium
Even if it's all about emissions, due to the way they test these there is no difference between a chipped and an unchipped car.


- Kayjey -

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: Kayjey] #1155432
12/01/2011 10:43
12/01/2011 10:43

R
Richcoupe
Unregistered
Richcoupe
Unregistered
R



some chips which are focussed more toward performance rather than performance/economy balance tend to throw rather more fuel in than needed and as a reault emissions can be higher thats all

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155439
12/01/2011 10:55
12/01/2011 10:55
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,295
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
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Sandhurst
Where is Baz76 when you need him. He would be able to give the in's and out's of all of this and think he did earlier in the thread.


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155449
12/01/2011 11:24
12/01/2011 11:24
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
barnacle Online happy
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
barnacle  Online Happy
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Forum Demigod

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
Originally Posted By: Richcoupe
The only issues surrounding HID's is the colour temperature which basically is an indication of colour and brightness. as lonjg as they're within legal limits then they're perfectly legal.


Um, not actually the case. Since they're not type approved on the coupe, they're not permitted - they have neither washers not automatic levelling devices.

But that's not an MOT issue at present; that cares only that they work and that they point in the right direction. Instead, it's a constructions and use regulation; failure to comply carries (last time I looked) a seventy-five quid fine and three points per offence - it's the same rules as for tyres; four bald gets you a ban. Strictly, two HIDs on a car not type-approved with them gets you half a ban.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: barnacle] #1155491
12/01/2011 13:21
12/01/2011 13:21

K
karl_20VT
Unregistered
karl_20VT
Unregistered
K



Originally Posted By: barnacle
There are still kit cars...


second that!

There are too many rules and regs that have been set up in the past to suit "other sectors" that the new rules would contradict.
The cost to sort out a complete new system that caters for all would surely cost too much against what benifit?

IMO we all know that every year the automotive technology improves. Banning the use of newer safer technology (i.e. HID's), improving the older generation of cars, seems to be a step in the wrong direction.

No matter how I look at this topic, the gut feeling is that the govenment want to push people into buying newer cars, (for obvious reasons) even if second hand, as this will continue up the chain meaning more people buy new cars and pay the tax associated.

don't even get me started on, Road Tax, Council Tax, Petrol Prices and Breathing Air Tax. Rar Rar Rar............. furious banghead suicide

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: barnacle] #1155695
12/01/2011 21:06
12/01/2011 21:06

P
Pondman
Unregistered
Pondman
Unregistered
P



Originally Posted By: barnacle
constructions and use regulation; failure to comply carries (last time I looked) a seventy-five quid fine and three points per offence - it's the same rules as for tyres; four bald gets you a ban. Strictly, two HIDs on a car not type-approved with them gets you half a ban.

Cor blimey Gov! better get them adjusted well so as to not attract attention. Has anyone actually known to have been pulled or convicted under this regulation confused

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155712
12/01/2011 21:35
12/01/2011 21:35
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
Dr. Frankenstan
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yes

Last edited by stan; 12/01/2011 21:35. Reason: But I wasn't the one being pulled, I hasten to add and it wasn't a coupé!

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Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: Begbie] #1155757
12/01/2011 22:59
12/01/2011 22:59
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,080
Dumfriesshire, Scotland
Baz76 Offline
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Baz76  Offline
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Dumfriesshire, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Begbie
Where is Baz76 when you need him. He would be able to give the in's and out's of all of this and think he did earlier in the thread.


As I said earlier,I'll see what VOSA say at the seminar in February wink .

Baz smile


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Project LE+
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155763
12/01/2011 23:22
12/01/2011 23:22

S
suba
Unregistered
suba
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted By: Nobby
Hmm.....

I hope they don't think that my Apexi is a ECU chipping device (as it uses feeds from the ECU to work). Does anyone now how all the jap tuning boxes work (Apexi Power Commander etc..) as surely this might fall under the same thing.

Not a good sign for Dastek unichips either.


Chris - the Power FC and commander is a separate ECU with the 'commander' being a handheld device with graphic displays and the ability to change parameters. I wonder what they would make of that? It's unlikely that they would have all the data on my rx7 anyway as it's an import - it does not have to have a CAT to pass it's MOT by law. smile

I am all for making the testing of HIDS part of the MOT. All the OEM parts on Range Rovers and similar 4 by 4's are very dazzling to a normal car when in front of one. They need to be installed correctly and legally to be safe IMO.

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1155917
13/01/2011 12:47
13/01/2011 12:47

N
Nello
Unregistered
Nello
Unregistered
N



...and those Audi Daylight LED thingys....

Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1168487
09/02/2011 07:41
09/02/2011 07:41
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,080
Dumfriesshire, Scotland
Baz76 Offline
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Well according to one of the head VOSA guys at the seminar on Monday night,HID's are going to be in the test for next year frown . He commented on how you should be inspecting the car for a headlamp wash system and self levelling adjusters if you can clearly see that an HID kit has been installed ie ballast pack fitted to the outside of headlight.

As for ECU testing,I don't think that's going to happen yet because when we questioned him about using scan tools he didn't seem to realise that not every scan tool can read every car 100%,therefore the only way it would get the go ahead would be if there was a dedicated scan tool for the job.

Baz smile


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Project LE+
Re: MOT changes? HIDS and chipped ECUs [Re: ] #1168521
09/02/2011 09:33
09/02/2011 09:33
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 369
Reigate, Surrey
ikon Offline
Making a profit
ikon  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 369
Reigate, Surrey
baz76

did VOSA mention anything about if your using standard bulbs but a ballast attached, would they assume you will be using hids? which will mean a fail??

steve

Last edited by ikon; 09/02/2011 09:33.

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