Turbo J-i was hoping this thread would attract your attention.
I heard you had an Omex but went to megasquirt,but coultnt find the thread of as to the reasons you changed.
Wasnt aware you were running the Omex.

Well I know you have mused about it before, so if you feel you should try a stand alone ecu then go for it! Contrary to what some may think, I have no problems with stand alone ecus, and have mapped many including DTA, Motec, Emerald etc, on lots of different cars including full racers over 500bhp.

However, I will disagree profoundly with most of the above points relating to the standard ecu and also state categorically that the Bosch Motronic ecu is 100% not the cause of any of your current problems. I know you wont mind me saying that you admit to understanding only a little about ecus, dynos and tuning, therefore I can only assume that someone has been trying to advise on the “ins and outs”, and most likely pointing towards the ecu as a problem. Well I have heard this a lot from many different tuners i.e. you have to go stand alone, the standard ECU cant do this or that etc etc. Well frankly this is just plain misinformation and misrepresentation, as has been proven otherwise and is usually based on two motives:

1. They have zero knowledge about the Bosch/Marelli/Siemens ecus, and therefore have zero ability to map it. Some may have basic knowledge/software, but simply can’t achieve more than a basic remap for a standard or mildly tuned car
2. They are trying to sell another solution.

Your car is no different to any of the other 400bhp+ coupes out there i.e. it’s not pushing the boundaries of the standard ecu any more than these other cars, or indeed what I have been doing for 4+ years now! As it stands, I can think of 15 or more 20v turbos running 400bhp+ via the standard ecu, and simply hundreds of 350bhp, 300bhp…

The facts on the ground are we have many more cars, especially big power, running via the Bosch ecu than any other system. These cars have proven themselves over thousands of miles, not just in terms of performance, but also fuel economy and reliability. I would note as well that ALL these cars have only been tuned by me once unless they have received further upgrades. The notion that you have to come back for constant tweaks is simply not true unless there are mechanical problems as was with your car. One map, that’s all it takes. Look at the massive miles that Nigel has achieved, coupled with many drag races and TOTB wins. People like Watz drive their 400bhp+ Coupes every day for work, all without doing anything more than turning the key and filling up with petrol! I remember Eldinho commentating how boringly reliable his 429bhp car was for the full 18 months he had it before selling up, that’s with track days and an Auto Italia magazine feature taking it over 175mph at Bruntingthorpe, some 20mph faster than the other 400bhp cars! In fact, the fastest cars to this day are still the Bosch cars and they will continue to go faster.

Flea – 11.9 @ 121mph (Bosch)
Mavric – 11.9 @ 121mph (Motec)
Barbz – 12.35 @ 121mph (Motec + NOS)
Jari – 12.36 @ 118mph (Bosch)
Nigel – 12.38 @ 115mph (Bosch)
Westcoupe – 12.5 @ 120mph (Bosch)
Eldinho – 12.6 @ 113mph (Bosch)
Markus – 12.7 @ 112mph (Bosch + NOS)

We can all debate dyno figures until the cows come home, but what you can’t do is debate pure hard times as achieved on the tarmac! I have also done many airfield days and mile drag races as my Youtube videos show, and of course countless track days… as they say the proof is in the pudding and these cars have proven it over and over and over. Only recently at the Donington track day I flew past an RX7 not obviously knowing what his power output was. Later that day Marco spoke to him where he revealed his rex had 430bhp, yet he said I went past him as if he had the handbrake on! I was only running 1.4bar

We also have two fantastic 2.4 conversions running via the Bosch management now, Taz (2years) and Barbz more recently. Speaking to Barbz just this morning, he especially commented on how great the car was to drive every day around town, and the fuel economy was as good as his 1.8 car, that’s with 720cc injectors and no problems to pass the MOT emissions. Of course it’s also now the most powerful 2.4 he has built, and is certainly the quickest according to his brother! I think Taz is looking into some further upgrades

The Bosch ECUs are very sophisticated, they have to be to work in all conditions around the world. Whenever you see a 600bhp AMG Merc, 500bhp BMW Alpina, 700bhp Porsche Ruf, 800bhp Novitec Turbo Ferrari… all these tuners rely on the factory management system to make their cars as perfect, fast and reliable as possible, there is no substitute. A 500bhp Fiat Coupe is certainly no different.

I know you have had a lot of problems John, three engine builds due to low oil pressure, a slipping/contaminated clutch, multiple blown diffs, boost leaks/control issues, manifold/surge issues, brake issues, wiring problems, rocker cover oil leaks, water in the ecu… that would drive anyone up the wall. However, whoever says air flow meters or safety features are holding back your engine, well I would say they actually help hold your engine together! I can’t imagine Ferrari or Porsche limiting their engines with "safety features" or any other manufacturer, as alluded to above. As you also mentioned, your local tuner said your fueling was the most perfect he had seen for such a high power car and he could spend two weeks and still not get it as good as that… well that was a nice compliment. A different ecu cannot improve on that, or any other parameter be it boost, ignition, VVT.

Anyway, that’s coming from someone who knows these cars and ecus pretty darn well. It’s a real shame you have had a hard time with it all, I’ve had my fair share over the years with mechanical failures, but I just hope you find what you are looking for as despite your problems, you are very much the exception to the rule.

I ran one for ages with no issues (though just under 350 bhp rather than over 400!)

As many who have met me will know, I have a very pragmatic approach to tuning. There is a reason why I can tune someone’s car on the other side of the world very accurately like Hani in Qatar or Jari in Finland (460bhp!!). To date I have tuned cars in 38 countries, some with no more than a basic chip, others to a very high power. These are logical systems, they are proven, and ultimately should not be open to conjecture.

I should mention that John and I are still friends, and should he choose to go standalone he still won’t be as fast as me on track

Obviously my concerns with a thread like this is that misinformation and hearsay dictate the general consensus and knowledge regarding ecus, especially the factory Bosch system. The reason why your car is the exception John is simply that, these problems are unique to your car and are in no way correlated to the ecu. You have to remember these are logical systems, in short they either work or they don’t. The ecu doesn’t determine that it likes one car but not another, therefore what is good for the goose is good for the gander. We have many 20vts running without problem day in day out, and these are with similar or more power than your car. It would be a bit like saying you can’t rebuild a 20vt engine because it will suffer from low oil pressure. John’s engine has been rebuilt three times and most recently with a new crank and oil pump, but still the oil pressure is very low. Of course we know this is not the case for 99% of other Coupes which have good oil pressure after a rebuild, but for whatever reasons his engine is proving troublesome. The trick is to find out why!

In the early days of Coupe mapping there was another respected tuner who purchased some very expensive commercial software/hardware in order to allow him to tune the 20vt. Anyway, he mapped quite a few Coupes and subsequently determined that you could not possibly go bigger than 400-420cc injectors and even then that was with them idling pig rich, anything more and they couldn’t be controlled! Was he right? Hell no, here we are today running 720cc injectors and passing MOT emissions with better than factory fuel economy! The problem was that despite being a very prolific Jap car tuner with standalone managements, he simply didn’t have enough knowledge about the very complex Bosch ecu. When you make statements about something technical, you should do so from a position of knowledge and experience, otherwise it is misguided opinion. I can say now that we can go bigger than 720cc (equivalent to 900cc on a 4 pot), whether we will need to is another matter as these can flow enough for 600bhp. @ TurboJ, I think you need to change “The Knowledge” post as the injectors advice is way out of date

On a slightly different note regarding the 16vt ecu, it has been mentioned/questioned a couple of times (and most recently to me today) on whether there are enough breakpoints in the Marelli ecu for accurate tuning. Well the simple answer is yes there are, despite there being “only” 16, this is more than adequate for very high powered cars with no issues whatsoever. To date the highest powered Marelli car I have tuned is a Sierra Cosworth at 440bhp & 400lbs/ft. I did this last year and he will be coming back for an update as he has subsequently upgraded the car in pursuit of more power! The 16vt is no different, and I have seen over 360bhp with this engine tuned from 1bar all the way to 1.7bar, and I will say it now, that map was perfection! Of course, for the doubting Thomases amomgst us, well Ferrari tuned their F40 to 480bhp with the very same Marelli ecu and just 16 breakpoints

As many who have met me will know, I have a very pragmatic approach to tuning. There is a reason why I can tune someone’s car on the other side of the world very accurately like Hani in Qatar or Jari in Finland (460bhp!!). To date I have tuned cars in 38 countries, some with no more than a basic chip, others to a very high power. These are logical systems, they are proven, and ultimately should not be open to conjecture.

How is this done Flea? By correcting the current maps based on rolling road graphs/wideband lambda readings etc?

Ross

Amen,and(no disrespect) the 16vt management has been taken MUCH further by others as well.most of the people i hear blaming an ecu and advising buying a newer "race" ecu are being paid to do so.

How is this done Flea? By correcting the current maps based on rolling road graphs/wideband lambda readings etc?

Ross

Just re-read that. Not wanting all your magical tricks out in the open, just want to know if its based on customer feedback, that the changes are made.

Ross