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Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
#1197615
06/04/2011 22:34
06/04/2011 22:34
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Advice needed on these, The DTA seems to offer it all and has had very accurate results and tests on well known cars on here.
The Omex however isnt as straightforward and from what i have read for the last few hours a few folk have removed it or the previous version due to there issues.
SO at the moment im 99% towards the DTA but the Omex is convenient and can be mapped locally and fitted by someone i know.Hes very good but has never mapped a coupe before so on that basis i dont want to use him.
Im going for Stand alone as im sick and tired of all the running faults with the stock ecu and im getting nowhere other than continually throwing money at it and having the same issues.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1197627
06/04/2011 22:43
06/04/2011 22:43
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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I have made up my mind,but rather than my usual approach of doing something and regretting it later i thought i would just get peoples opinions on the Omex just in case im wrong.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1197674
06/04/2011 23:42
06/04/2011 23:42
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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I have had both ECU's on my car, I switched from DTA to OMEX because of issues. (Quite the opposite from what your suggesting)
I have an OMEX710 and there are no issues. OMEX ECU's are made by GEMS which is a proper motorsport company. I refuse to look at any further DTA products because I had to threaten them with legal action over their P8 PRO ECU NOT supporting the 5 pot fiat engine. (I assume your looking at the S80 now)
To be honest both these ECU's have pretty much the same features not sure on price these days probably about £850 + VAT. What I will say is the OMEX customer support is outstanding and the DTA support is non existent.
Suppose its your call but glad you finally see that the STD ECU has its limitations.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1197775
07/04/2011 05:05
07/04/2011 05:05
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ktm450exc
Unregistered
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ktm450exc
Unregistered
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you don't know the half of it! it's been genuinely sad to see a mate throw good money after bad trying to get the car he loves and has spent so much time and money on to run right ,only to speak to him the day after the latest attempt or solution has cost him another fair sum and not sorted the issue..i have heard him say he has had enough a couple of times then when he gets over it , only to have his hopes raised again with a possible solution which doesnt fix the issue again! the fact there are 2 reasonably priced ecu's both with 5 cylinder set up and both with a high power car running perfectly on thier system is inspirational for us all but especially for john! as the motec, although quality, is an expensive option.. i have even been looking into mega squirt but i think you would need to be a little more hands on than with dta or omex.. so theres now a couple of competent mappers for the big power 5 cyl, which makes this the only option worth entertaining for these type of cars, its straight forward proven and offers so many set up options the original ecu can't as well as the traction control,launch control etc that i am suprised more are not running them as john can no doubt testify they work out far more cost effective than trying to run standard and iron out the issues it throws up..in fact i am sure john wont mind me saying if he had gone this way from the start he could have paid for the system a few times over already but at least you'll have her running properly and get the best from her now mate i'm sure it will all seem worth it when you can finally run a reasonable amount of boost and have the cars potential running on road... i hope you don't mind me saying all this mate but its been a frustrating time for the friends that have been on the phone with you trying to keep your chin up time and again..and to have a car capable of so much yet being unable to even run moderate power properly then go from one running issue to the next has been frustrating to watch! for me john in carlisle has done an excellent job with robs and seems to be a real genuine engineer/tuner that can not just offer solutions to the issues the cars throw up but has the skills and knowledge to build and fabricate everything from brackets to complete throttle bodies (has proper engineering skills and machinery on site) and robs car runs flawlessly i am sure j will give you whatever help you need to go omex if its more convenient to go local but the main thing is you will finally have the drive you deserved all along.. fair play to you for loyalty mate but get it sorted asap so i can finally run rings round it.. wouldn't have been any fun turning my boost off and whipping a coilpack off to beat your sub400 at least when its done i will run all 5 cyl and maybe half a bar
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1197837
07/04/2011 10:52
07/04/2011 10:52
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Thanks Rob,yes it has been a push to stick with the car despite all the faults,but seeing 390 bhp and 410 bhp after near 2 years of faults and issues pushed me to question the reasons for keeping the car. Lets be right,400 can be achieved on stock internals.
The car is and has been running way underpowered for its potential and if throwing more money at it to finally be able to release its potential then im all for it.
Turbo J-i was hoping this thread would attract your attention. I heard you had an Omex but went to megasquirt,but coultnt find the thread of as to the reasons you changed. Wasnt aware you were running the Omex./
That said Rob40 has had fantastic and long lasting results from the later Dta setup. As for stand alone i have never been one for reccomending these as alot of the safety features dont need to be ran like they do in the stock ecu. But the safety features seem to be stopping my progress on this.
This isnt in my case a dig at anyone nor is it passing the blame. I have spent money of my own doing to push the boundaries of the stock ecu,which in turn has seen its own new issues.
My car is very fast,and the fuelling is near perfect,but with the restrictions of various sensors I.e the AFM its hard to achieve a setup that doesnt cause issues after time in my case.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198086
07/04/2011 18:22
07/04/2011 18:22
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Well I know you have mused about it before, so if you feel you should try a stand alone ecu then go for it! Contrary to what some may think, I have no problems with stand alone ecus, and have mapped many including DTA, Motec, Emerald etc, on lots of different cars including full racers over 500bhp. However, I will disagree profoundly with most of the above points relating to the standard ecu and also state categorically that the Bosch Motronic ecu is 100% not the cause of any of your current problems. I know you wont mind me saying that you admit to understanding only a little about ecus, dynos and tuning, therefore I can only assume that someone has been trying to advise on the “ins and outs”, and most likely pointing towards the ecu as a problem. Well I have heard this a lot from many different tuners i.e. you have to go stand alone, the standard ECU cant do this or that etc etc. Well frankly this is just plain misinformation and misrepresentation, as has been proven otherwise and is usually based on two motives: 1. They have zero knowledge about the Bosch/Marelli/Siemens ecus, and therefore have zero ability to map it. Some may have basic knowledge/software, but simply can’t achieve more than a basic remap for a standard or mildly tuned car 2. They are trying to sell another solution. Your car is no different to any of the other 400bhp+ coupes out there i.e. it’s not pushing the boundaries of the standard ecu any more than these other cars, or indeed what I have been doing for 4+ years now! As it stands, I can think of 15 or more 20v turbos running 400bhp+ via the standard ecu, and simply hundreds of 350bhp, 300bhp… The facts on the ground are we have many more cars, especially big power, running via the Bosch ecu than any other system. These cars have proven themselves over thousands of miles, not just in terms of performance, but also fuel economy and reliability. I would note as well that ALL these cars have only been tuned by me once unless they have received further upgrades. The notion that you have to come back for constant tweaks is simply not true unless there are mechanical problems as was with your car. One map, that’s all it takes. Look at the massive miles that Nigel has achieved, coupled with many drag races and TOTB wins. People like Watz drive their 400bhp+ Coupes every day for work, all without doing anything more than turning the key and filling up with petrol! I remember Eldinho commentating how boringly reliable his 429bhp car was for the full 18 months he had it before selling up, that’s with track days and an Auto Italia magazine feature taking it over 175mph at Bruntingthorpe, some 20mph faster than the other 400bhp cars! In fact, the fastest cars to this day are still the Bosch cars and they will continue to go faster. Flea – 11.9 @ 121mph (Bosch) Mavric – 11.9 @ 121mph (Motec) Barbz – 12.35 @ 121mph (Motec + NOS) Jari – 12.36 @ 118mph (Bosch) Nigel – 12.38 @ 115mph (Bosch) Westcoupe – 12.5 @ 120mph (Bosch) Eldinho – 12.6 @ 113mph (Bosch) Markus – 12.7 @ 112mph (Bosch + NOS)We can all debate dyno figures until the cows come home, but what you can’t do is debate pure hard times as achieved on the tarmac! I have also done many airfield days and mile drag races as my Youtube videos show, and of course countless track days… as they say the proof is in the pudding and these cars have proven it over and over and over. Only recently at the Donington track day I flew past an RX7 not obviously knowing what his power output was. Later that day Marco spoke to him where he revealed his rex had 430bhp, yet he said I went past him as if he had the handbrake on! I was only running 1.4bar ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) We also have two fantastic 2.4 conversions running via the Bosch management now, Taz (2years) and Barbz more recently. Speaking to Barbz just this morning, he especially commented on how great the car was to drive every day around town, and the fuel economy was as good as his 1.8 car, that’s with 720cc injectors and no problems to pass the MOT emissions. Of course it’s also now the most powerful 2.4 he has built, and is certainly the quickest according to his brother! I think Taz is looking into some further upgrades ![wink wink](/forum/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) The Bosch ECUs are very sophisticated, they have to be to work in all conditions around the world. Whenever you see a 600bhp AMG Merc, 500bhp BMW Alpina, 700bhp Porsche Ruf, 800bhp Novitec Turbo Ferrari… all these tuners rely on the factory management system to make their cars as perfect, fast and reliable as possible, there is no substitute. A 500bhp Fiat Coupe is certainly no different. I know you have had a lot of problems John, three engine builds due to low oil pressure, a slipping/contaminated clutch, multiple blown diffs, boost leaks/control issues, manifold/surge issues, brake issues, wiring problems, rocker cover oil leaks, water in the ecu… that would drive anyone up the wall. However, whoever says air flow meters or safety features are holding back your engine, well I would say they actually help hold your engine together! I can’t imagine Ferrari or Porsche limiting their engines with "safety features" or any other manufacturer, as alluded to above. As you also mentioned, your local tuner said your fueling was the most perfect he had seen for such a high power car and he could spend two weeks and still not get it as good as that… well that was a nice compliment. A different ecu cannot improve on that, or any other parameter be it boost, ignition, VVT. Anyway, that’s coming from someone who knows these cars and ecus pretty darn well. It’s a real shame you have had a hard time with it all, I’ve had my fair share over the years with mechanical failures, but I just hope you find what you are looking for as despite your problems, you are very much the exception to the rule.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198108
07/04/2011 18:52
07/04/2011 18:52
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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TurboJ
Unregistered
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Turbo J-i was hoping this thread would attract your attention. I heard you had an Omex but went to megasquirt,but coultnt find the thread of as to the reasons you changed. Wasnt aware you were running the Omex.
???? I've got an OMEX 710 in my car right now and always had since the day I fitted mine and Squids. I run a megasquirt ECU on an Audi 20VT engine in a test cell. I'm testing firmware and software and might consider changing my 710 to megasquirt or something else later in the year. My OMEX is good as gold no real reason for a change just fancy learning an new software ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198234
07/04/2011 22:05
07/04/2011 22:05
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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.
Last edited by johnnybravoturbo; 07/04/2011 22:14.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: Flea]
#1198255
07/04/2011 22:27
07/04/2011 22:27
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Well I know you have mused about it before, so if you feel you should try a stand alone ecu then go for it! Contrary to what some may think, I have no problems with stand alone ecus, and have mapped many including DTA, Motec, Emerald etc, on lots of different cars including full racers over 500bhp. However, I will disagree profoundly with most of the above points relating to the standard ecu and also state categorically that the Bosch Motronic ecu is 100% not the cause of any of your current problems. I know you wont mind me saying that you admit to understanding only a little about ecus, dynos and tuning, therefore I can only assume that someone has been trying to advise on the “ins and outs”, and most likely pointing towards the ecu as a problem. Well I have heard this a lot from many different tuners i.e. you have to go stand alone, the standard ECU cant do this or that etc etc. Well frankly this is just plain misinformation and misrepresentation, as has been proven otherwise and is usually based on two motives: 1. They have zero knowledge about the Bosch/Marelli/Siemens ecus, and therefore have zero ability to map it. Some may have basic knowledge/software, but simply can’t achieve more than a basic remap for a standard or mildly tuned car 2. They are trying to sell another solution. Your car is no different to any of the other 400bhp+ coupes out there i.e. it’s not pushing the boundaries of the standard ecu any more than these other cars, or indeed what I have been doing for 4+ years now! As it stands, I can think of 15 or more 20v turbos running 400bhp+ via the standard ecu, and simply hundreds of 350bhp, 300bhp… The facts on the ground are we have many more cars, especially big power, running via the Bosch ecu than any other system. These cars have proven themselves over thousands of miles, not just in terms of performance, but also fuel economy and reliability. I would note as well that ALL these cars have only been tuned by me once unless they have received further upgrades. The notion that you have to come back for constant tweaks is simply not true unless there are mechanical problems as was with your car. One map, that’s all it takes. Look at the massive miles that Nigel has achieved, coupled with many drag races and TOTB wins. People like Watz drive their 400bhp+ Coupes every day for work, all without doing anything more than turning the key and filling up with petrol! I remember Eldinho commentating how boringly reliable his 429bhp car was for the full 18 months he had it before selling up, that’s with track days and an Auto Italia magazine feature taking it over 175mph at Bruntingthorpe, some 20mph faster than the other 400bhp cars! In fact, the fastest cars to this day are still the Bosch cars and they will continue to go faster. Flea – 11.9 @ 121mph (Bosch) Mavric – 11.9 @ 121mph (Motec) Barbz – 12.35 @ 121mph (Motec + NOS) Jari – 12.36 @ 118mph (Bosch) Nigel – 12.38 @ 115mph (Bosch) Westcoupe – 12.5 @ 120mph (Bosch) Eldinho – 12.6 @ 113mph (Bosch) Markus – 12.7 @ 112mph (Bosch + NOS)We can all debate dyno figures until the cows come home, but what you can’t do is debate pure hard times as achieved on the tarmac! I have also done many airfield days and mile drag races as my Youtube videos show, and of course countless track days… as they say the proof is in the pudding and these cars have proven it over and over and over. Only recently at the Donington track day I flew past an RX7 not obviously knowing what his power output was. Later that day Marco spoke to him where he revealed his rex had 430bhp, yet he said I went past him as if he had the handbrake on! I was only running 1.4bar ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) We also have two fantastic 2.4 conversions running via the Bosch management now, Taz (2years) and Barbz more recently. Speaking to Barbz just this morning, he especially commented on how great the car was to drive every day around town, and the fuel economy was as good as his 1.8 car, that’s with 720cc injectors and no problems to pass the MOT emissions. Of course it’s also now the most powerful 2.4 he has built, and is certainly the quickest according to his brother! I think Taz is looking into some further upgrades ![wink wink](/forum/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) The Bosch ECUs are very sophisticated, they have to be to work in all conditions around the world. Whenever you see a 600bhp AMG Merc, 500bhp BMW Alpina, 700bhp Porsche Ruf, 800bhp Novitec Turbo Ferrari… all these tuners rely on the factory management system to make their cars as perfect, fast and reliable as possible, there is no substitute. A 500bhp Fiat Coupe is certainly no different. I know you have had a lot of problems John, three engine builds due to low oil pressure, a slipping/contaminated clutch, multiple blown diffs, boost leaks/control issues, manifold/surge issues, brake issues, wiring problems, rocker cover oil leaks, water in the ecu… that would drive anyone up the wall. However, whoever says air flow meters or safety features are holding back your engine, well I would say they actually help hold your engine together! I can’t imagine Ferrari or Porsche limiting their engines with "safety features" or any other manufacturer, as alluded to above. As you also mentioned, your local tuner said your fueling was the most perfect he had seen for such a high power car and he could spend two weeks and still not get it as good as that… well that was a nice compliment. A different ecu cannot improve on that, or any other parameter be it boost, ignition, VVT. Anyway, that’s coming from someone who knows these cars and ecus pretty darn well. It’s a real shame you have had a hard time with it all, I’ve had my fair share over the years with mechanical failures, but I just hope you find what you are looking for as despite your problems, you are very much the exception to the rule. Failures i can cope with as i can sort that,but why am i the exception to the rule. Im well out of pocket with the mapping and its not a nice car to drive.??? I dont want to shell out £1500 on management but the car isnt drivable. And im not going down to Bristol yet again to have the same results on the way home.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198258
07/04/2011 22:31
07/04/2011 22:31
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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Why dont you try someone else that can map the standard ecu?
Ross
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198289
07/04/2011 23:05
07/04/2011 23:05
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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The standard ECU imo is not capable of accurately running my power for prolonged periods.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: Flea]
#1198314
07/04/2011 23:48
07/04/2011 23:48
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Barbz
Unregistered
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Ahem, Ahem! You forgot to mention the biggest contributing factor.... 5 out of the 8 coupe's are running TI engine platform's Flea – 11.9 @ 121mph (Bosch) Mavric – 11.9 @ 121mph (Motec) Barbz – 12.35 @ 121mph (Motec + NOS)Jari – 12.36 @ 118mph (Bosch) Nigel – 12.38 @ 115mph (Bosch}Westcoupe – 12.5 @ 120mph (Bosch) Eldinho – 12.6 @ 113mph (Bosch Markus – 12.7 @ 112mph (Bosch + NOS)
Last edited by Barbz; 07/04/2011 23:58.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198324
07/04/2011 23:56
07/04/2011 23:56
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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When I looked into a stand alone ECU I spoke to a lot of people, and concluded that an Omex 710 would have been the one for the 5 cylinder engine. ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif) This was before Flea could map the stock ECU, A cheaper option for you would be a unichip piggyback ecu - I ran one for ages with no issues (though just under 350 bhp rather than over 400!)
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198381
08/04/2011 01:05
08/04/2011 01:05
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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I ran one for ages with no issues (though just under 350 bhp rather than over 400!) Would that be the same one i repaired with a cracked piston not long ago Simon ![laugh laugh](/forum/images/graemlins/default/laugh.gif) . Seriously though, Dyno run at 410 bhp @1.65 bar Watch this space. Standalone ecu replaced in next few weeks,and results i will post here for comparison.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198611
08/04/2011 11:47
08/04/2011 11:47
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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It ran well while the unichip was on the car.....it was well after it was removed. ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198647
08/04/2011 12:43
08/04/2011 12:43
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
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Have you still got the Rx mate?
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198673
08/04/2011 13:28
08/04/2011 13:28
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suba
Unregistered
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suba
Unregistered
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yep - it's going very well at the moment on the single turbo. ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198677
08/04/2011 13:37
08/04/2011 13:37
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AP1
Unregistered
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AP1
Unregistered
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What's a ti engine platform?
Last edited by AP1; 08/04/2011 13:37.
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198696
08/04/2011 13:57
08/04/2011 13:57
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ktm450exc
Unregistered
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ktm450exc
Unregistered
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torque italia.. barbz built them and most of the other quick ones.. if he didn't build them they have a head,turbo,sip or at least something he has designed/made/built..he has also built the first 2.4 i think.. built all the 2.4s in uk so far ,sold the kits worldwide (though now, as is usually the case, people see what he has done and copy it) and basically single handedly took coupe tuning from a couple of basic mods to where it is now..he was building 500bhp+ cars 6 or 7 years ago before he left for dubia..now he is back he has just built probably the fastest coupe in uk and when mapped next week another which will likely be the fastest in the world.. as you can tell i am a barbz fan/groupie and have his name tatooed across my breasts
barbz does that get something off the bill?
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Re: Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198700
08/04/2011 14:01
08/04/2011 14:01
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ktm450exc
Unregistered
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ktm450exc
Unregistered
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forum disclaimer
before anyone takes it all seriously and gets the hump i know he didn't build every one and there maybe a couple of cars with nothing of his on
Last edited by ktm450exc; 08/04/2011 14:03.
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198772
08/04/2011 15:09
08/04/2011 15:09
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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I should mention that John and I are still friends, and should he choose to go standalone he still won’t be as fast as me on track ![tongue tongue](/forum/images/graemlins/default/tongue.gif) Obviously my concerns with a thread like this is that misinformation and hearsay dictate the general consensus and knowledge regarding ecus, especially the factory Bosch system. The reason why your car is the exception John is simply that, these problems are unique to your car and are in no way correlated to the ecu. You have to remember these are logical systems, in short they either work or they don’t. The ecu doesn’t determine that it likes one car but not another, therefore what is good for the goose is good for the gander. We have many 20vts running without problem day in day out, and these are with similar or more power than your car. It would be a bit like saying you can’t rebuild a 20vt engine because it will suffer from low oil pressure. John’s engine has been rebuilt three times and most recently with a new crank and oil pump, but still the oil pressure is very low. Of course we know this is not the case for 99% of other Coupes which have good oil pressure after a rebuild, but for whatever reasons his engine is proving troublesome. The trick is to find out why! In the early days of Coupe mapping there was another respected tuner who purchased some very expensive commercial software/hardware in order to allow him to tune the 20vt. Anyway, he mapped quite a few Coupes and subsequently determined that you could not possibly go bigger than 400-420cc injectors and even then that was with them idling pig rich, anything more and they couldn’t be controlled! Was he right? Hell no, here we are today running 720cc injectors and passing MOT emissions with better than factory fuel economy! The problem was that despite being a very prolific Jap car tuner with standalone managements, he simply didn’t have enough knowledge about the very complex Bosch ecu. When you make statements about something technical, you should do so from a position of knowledge and experience, otherwise it is misguided opinion. I can say now that we can go bigger than 720cc (equivalent to 900cc on a 4 pot), whether we will need to is another matter as these can flow enough for 600bhp. @ TurboJ, I think you need to change “The Knowledge” post as the injectors advice is way out of date ![wink wink](/forum/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) On a slightly different note regarding the 16vt ecu, it has been mentioned/questioned a couple of times (and most recently to me today) on whether there are enough breakpoints in the Marelli ecu for accurate tuning. Well the simple answer is yes there are, despite there being “only” 16, this is more than adequate for very high powered cars with no issues whatsoever. To date the highest powered Marelli car I have tuned is a Sierra Cosworth at 440bhp & 400lbs/ft. I did this last year and he will be coming back for an update as he has subsequently upgraded the car in pursuit of more power! The 16vt is no different, and I have seen over 360bhp with this engine tuned from 1bar all the way to 1.7bar, and I will say it now, that map was perfection! Of course, for the doubting Thomases amomgst us, well Ferrari tuned their F40 to 480bhp with the very same Marelli ecu and just 16 breakpoints ![wink wink](/forum/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) As many who have met me will know, I have a very pragmatic approach to tuning. There is a reason why I can tune someone’s car on the other side of the world very accurately like Hani in Qatar or Jari in Finland (460bhp!!). To date I have tuned cars in 38 countries, some with no more than a basic chip, others to a very high power. These are logical systems, they are proven, and ultimately should not be open to conjecture.
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198782
08/04/2011 15:22
08/04/2011 15:22
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Marco20valveT
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Marco20valveT
Unregistered
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: Flea]
#1198803
08/04/2011 15:43
08/04/2011 15:43
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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As many who have met me will know, I have a very pragmatic approach to tuning. There is a reason why I can tune someone’s car on the other side of the world very accurately like Hani in Qatar or Jari in Finland (460bhp!!). To date I have tuned cars in 38 countries, some with no more than a basic chip, others to a very high power. These are logical systems, they are proven, and ultimately should not be open to conjecture.
How is this done Flea? By correcting the current maps based on rolling road graphs/wideband lambda readings etc? Ross
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198819
08/04/2011 15:57
08/04/2011 15:57
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 106 Ireland
LiamM
On a journey
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On a journey
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 106
Ireland
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I'm using a Gotech Pro-X ecu on mine http://www.gotech.co.za/productprox.html it only coughed into life last night, and needs to be set up before we send it to be mapped, but I'll report back on how it works
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: Flea]
#1198828
08/04/2011 16:09
08/04/2011 16:09
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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I should mention that John and I are still friends, and should he choose to go standalone he still won’t be as fast as me on track ![tongue tongue](/forum/images/graemlins/default/tongue.gif) Obviously my concerns with a thread like this is that misinformation and hearsay dictate the general consensus and knowledge regarding ecus, especially the factory Bosch system. The reason why your car is the exception John is simply that, these problems are unique to your car and are in no way correlated to the ecu. You have to remember these are logical systems, in short they either work or they don’t. The ecu doesn’t determine that it likes one car but not another, therefore what is good for the goose is good for the gander. We have many 20vts running without problem day in day out, and these are with similar or more power than your car. It would be a bit like saying you can’t rebuild a 20vt engine because it will suffer from low oil pressure. John’s engine has been rebuilt three times and most recently with a new crank and oil pump, but still the oil pressure is very low. Of course we know this is not the case for 99% of other Coupes which have good oil pressure after a rebuild, but for whatever reasons his engine is proving troublesome. The trick is to find out why! In the early days of Coupe mapping there was another respected tuner who purchased some very expensive commercial software/hardware in order to allow him to tune the 20vt. Anyway, he mapped quite a few Coupes and subsequently determined that you could not possibly go bigger than 400-420cc injectors and even then that was with them idling pig rich, anything more and they couldn’t be controlled! Was he right? Hell no, here we are today running 720cc injectors and passing MOT emissions with better than factory fuel economy! The problem was that despite being a very prolific Jap car tuner with standalone managements, he simply didn’t have enough knowledge about the very complex Bosch ecu. When you make statements about something technical, you should do so from a position of knowledge and experience, otherwise it is misguided opinion. I can say now that we can go bigger than 720cc (equivalent to 900cc on a 4 pot), whether we will need to is another matter as these can flow enough for 600bhp. @ TurboJ, I think you need to change “The Knowledge” post as the injectors advice is way out of date ![wink wink](/forum/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) On a slightly different note regarding the 16vt ecu, it has been mentioned/questioned a couple of times (and most recently to me today) on whether there are enough breakpoints in the Marelli ecu for accurate tuning. Well the simple answer is yes there are, despite there being “only” 16, this is more than adequate for very high powered cars with no issues whatsoever. To date the highest powered Marelli car I have tuned is a Sierra Cosworth at 440bhp & 400lbs/ft. I did this last year and he will be coming back for an update as he has subsequently upgraded the car in pursuit of more power! The 16vt is no different, and I have seen over 360bhp with this engine tuned from 1bar all the way to 1.7bar, and I will say it now, that map was perfection! Of course, for the doubting Thomases amomgst us, well Ferrari tuned their F40 to 480bhp with the very same Marelli ecu and just 16 breakpoints ![wink wink](/forum/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) As many who have met me will know, I have a very pragmatic approach to tuning. There is a reason why I can tune someone’s car on the other side of the world very accurately like Hani in Qatar or Jari in Finland (460bhp!!). To date I have tuned cars in 38 countries, some with no more than a basic chip, others to a very high power. These are logical systems, they are proven, and ultimately should not be open to conjecture. Amen,and(no disrespect) the 16vt management has been taken MUCH further by others as well.most of the people i hear blaming an ecu and advising buying a newer "race" ecu are being paid to do so.
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198852
08/04/2011 16:41
08/04/2011 16:41
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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h2ypr
Unregistered
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As many who have met me will know, I have a very pragmatic approach to tuning. There is a reason why I can tune someone’s car on the other side of the world very accurately like Hani in Qatar or Jari in Finland (460bhp!!). To date I have tuned cars in 38 countries, some with no more than a basic chip, others to a very high power. These are logical systems, they are proven, and ultimately should not be open to conjecture.
How is this done Flea? By correcting the current maps based on rolling road graphs/wideband lambda readings etc? Ross Just re-read that. Not wanting all your magical tricks out in the open, just want to know if its based on customer feedback, that the changes are made. Ross
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198871
08/04/2011 17:05
08/04/2011 17:05
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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its usually done with a good idea of whats needed in the first place then tweaked using datalogging for reference.
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198886
08/04/2011 17:50
08/04/2011 17:50
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405 Castle Combe
Flea
Forum is my life
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Forum is my life
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
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Amen,and(no disrespect) the 16vt management has been taken MUCH further by others as well.most of the people i hear blaming an ecu and advising buying a newer "race" ecu are being paid to do so. No you are right, there are/were some very powerful 16vt engines out there, unfortunately these days this engine is very much in the Autumn of it's life so they are few and far between. How is this done Flea? By correcting the current maps based on rolling road graphs/wideband lambda readings etc?
Ross
Just re-read that. Not wanting all your magical tricks out in the open, just want to know if its based on customer feedback, that the changes are made.
Ross
Yes it does require customer feedback, coupled with extensive experience and the all seeing eye/ear! Obviously I would prefer to see any car for live tuning, but for those that can't come to me, especially overseas, well it's the next best thing. Last year at Spa there were three French Coupes (380-420bhp) flying round with my maps that I had never set eyes on before! If you are interested send me a PM
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Re: Stock ECU VS Dta 80 VS Omex 710
[Re: ]
#1198902
08/04/2011 18:17
08/04/2011 18:17
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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GS_Racing
Unregistered
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oh,i didnt mean on coupe 16vt engines,just the management on other cars(cosworths,f40s etc),but theres a few out there coupe wise,i run one of your chips currently and am very impressed
Last edited by GS_Racing; 08/04/2011 18:17.
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