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Jan 14th, 2020
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GTA clutch...
#131803
14/06/2006 01:07
14/06/2006 01:07
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Does the GTA clutch fits to 16v turbo?
Thanks
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131805
15/06/2006 02:23
15/06/2006 02:23
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
If you mean 156 GTA clutch, what I've heard that it's same size as 16vt or 20vt std clutch...
how much torque can resist approx.?
it fits like the std?
sorry for my bad english,I'm italian 
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131806
15/06/2006 19:35
15/06/2006 19:35
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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The 156GTA 3.2 V6 clutch has to deal with less torque than a 20VT clutch, so IMHO and contrary to popular belief you might be better off with a 20VT clutch which is built to cope with more torque.
Hamster
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131807
15/06/2006 19:53
15/06/2006 19:53
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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the GTA clutch is the same size as the 20vt - I believe the 16vt is also the same.
The GTA clutch has a bigger friction plate so it can handle more than the 20vt clutch - I reckon the GTA will be OK up to about 280 lbs torque / 300bhp. Much higher and you will need any uprated cover plate to go with the GTA friction plate.
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131808
15/06/2006 20:23
15/06/2006 20:23
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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PowerFiat don't recommend the GTA place over the standard Fiat one. IIRC people claim 280ftlb for the standard clutch. If your boost comes in later, then you have less of a problem.
Last edited by Roger; 15/06/2006 20:25.
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131809
15/06/2006 20:50
15/06/2006 20:50
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
The GTA clutch has a bigger friction plate so it can handle more than the 20vt clutch
Anyone remember F = uR, where F is the friction, u is the co-efficient of friction and R is the reaction from the other surface? This basically says that the surface area is irrelevant and, IIRC, holds for most materials other than rubber.
This implies that you need a higher clamping force or you are wasting your time. A larger plate will give you more area to disipate heat and more friction material to wear away.
Unless of course, F=uR doesn't hold for friction materials, but I suspect that it does.
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131810
15/06/2006 21:09
15/06/2006 21:09
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
The standard friction equation is the relationship between the resistive force of sliding friction for hard surfaces, the normal force and the coefficient of friction for the two surfaces. When applied to sliding friction of hard surfaces, the equation implies that friction is independent of the area of the surfaces in contact. This equation can also apply to soft surfaces, rolling friction and fluid friction, but the coefficient of friction may depend on other factors.
Quote:
An interesting result of this equation is that in the case of sliding friction of hard surfaces, the friction is independent of the area of the surfaces. In other words, it is just as difficult to move a 1 square-cm object as a 1 square-meter object, if they both are pressed to the surface with the same amount of force.
This is not intuitive. You would think that there is more friction when the surfaces are larger, but the friction equation states otherwise. You can verify this fact with experiments.
However its the other factors that always get in the way, which is why dragsters have large tyres and not bicycle tyres, the relationship doesnt hold entirely true when you consider other factors such as heat dissipation, and that co-efficients are not static.
Joe
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131811
15/06/2006 21:42
15/06/2006 21:42
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
dragsters have large tyres and not bicycle tyres
The equation specifically does not hold for rubber. There is also wear to consider as a dragster vapourises its tyres, as do planes.
Quote:
other factors such as heat dissipation,
If the clutch isn't slipping, there should be virtually none. IMO a slightly bigger plate will make no appreciable difference.
Quote:
and that co-efficients are not static.
wrt what?
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131812
15/06/2006 21:58
15/06/2006 21:58
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Hi Roger  What I meant is that the co-efficient will vary specifically due to changes in the material and due to temperature. I'm sure you know this better than me, but in relation to Brake pad material, but the situation is different with brakes being virtually a dynamic vs a static issue. I agree that a change in the size of the plate within a certain range would not necessarily be that noticeable the main way to get greater 'hold' is through clamping force, or a change in the frictional co-efficient ,such as a change in materials. The paddle clutch has a lot less frictional area than the standard plate, but the material has a far higher frictional co-efficient, however this often leads to the clutch being 'grabby' or juddery and not always suitable fot street applications. Found this Quote:
Torque capacity in foot pounds (T) = N x R x F x P
Where R=radius of gyration which is increased with a larger area
Advanced clutch technology
interesting read, taught me a thing or two.
So it implies that with clutches size does make a difference.
joe
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131813
16/06/2006 00:57
16/06/2006 00:57
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
So it implies that with clutches size does make a difference.
This is really a second order effect when looking at increasing the clutch diameter by a small percentage. It is due to the frictional force being at a higher average radius, thus producing more torque.
The important thing to note is that the torque handling is not proportional to the area of friction material.
Roger
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131814
16/06/2006 01:31
16/06/2006 01:31
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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ahh, that makes sense, so it makes sense to place friction material as far awy from the axis of rotation as possible then.
So the GTA clutch would hold more torque if the extra friction material is placed towards the outside of the clutch plate. I cannot remember offhand if this is the case though.
joe
Last edited by Doctorfrag; 16/06/2006 02:32.
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131815
16/06/2006 05:11
16/06/2006 05:11
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Great discussion this  . Does this equation stack up with our normal understanding of pressure = force / area i.e. if the clutch plate was held by a clamping force (F) the pressure of the plate and hence frictional force would be reduced by increasing the area of the plate.
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131816
16/06/2006 05:33
16/06/2006 05:33
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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A slightly counter-intuitive result is that if you add more friction material inside the existing friction material ring, you reduce the torque rating of the clutch. If you remove material from the inside of the ring, you increase the torque capacity. Of course, there are other effects that you might not want. Quote:
Does this equation stack up with our normal understanding of pressure = force / area
i.e. if the clutch plate was held by a clamping force (F) the pressure of the plate and hence frictional force would be reduced by increasing the area of the plate.
No. They're using P for Pounds of clamping force! Bless.
Quote:
Torque capacity in foot pounds (T) = N x R x F x P
N = number or surfaces.
R = Radius of gyration.
F = Coefficient of friction.
P = Pounds of clamp load.
Last edited by Roger; 16/06/2006 05:52.
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131817
16/06/2006 14:31
16/06/2006 14:31
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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If anyone can translate this quite technical discussion into Italian I'm sure Cola will appreciate it Hamster
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131818
16/06/2006 22:20
16/06/2006 22:20
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
So the GTA clutch would hold more torque if the extra friction material is placed towards the outside of the clutch plate. I cannot remember offhand if this is the case though.
Yes, but I would have thought that within the constraints of the standard flywheel and clutch plate size, you'll get more from:
1. Increasing the clamping force e.g. Walkers +25% cover plate);
2. Increasing the coefficent of friction - I don't know how the different clutch plates compare on this.
Roger
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131819
17/06/2006 05:29
17/06/2006 05:29
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Roger, can I only get Walkers updated plate? If so, where from and how much? are there such things as updated bearing as well??? Cheers
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131820
17/06/2006 15:10
17/06/2006 15:10
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Vas, yes you can get organic plates with higher friction co-efficients, or a paddle plate with lot higher CoeF.
Vas you can contact Walkers garage, please see the Clutch FAQ guide I did for the numbers.
joe
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131821
18/06/2006 19:21
18/06/2006 19:21
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
If anyone can translate this quite technical discussion into Italian I'm sure Cola will appreciate it
Hamster
LOL
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131822
19/06/2006 00:57
19/06/2006 00:57
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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The Gta plate and walker cover plate (i think) can handle about 300lb/ft. I have a techniclutch which is rated to about 300lb/ft+.
Ross
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131823
20/06/2006 03:46
20/06/2006 03:46
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Vas, yes you can get organic plates with higher friction co-efficients, or a paddle plate with lot higher CoeF.
Vas you can contact Walkers garage, please see the Clutch FAQ guide I did for the numbers.
joe
Doc,
went through your guide (and of course the rest of the thread) and I admit I'm wiser now, but I also have two Qs:
First WTF is an organic clutch? (surely not a disk with microorganisms living in the friction material )
Then, I cannot find Walkers garage online (being in Greece, I'd rather not engage in lengthy long distance calls...)
Have come up with the offering from AutoIntegrale though, you recon it's similar?
'ere
(rather expensive  ?)
cheers
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Re: GTA clutch...
#131824
20/06/2006 05:16
20/06/2006 05:16
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Hi Vas, Organice clutch just refers to the type of friction material it will be most similar to a standard clutch of a GTA friction plate, you can get upagrades, in other words better friction, from using more aggressive compounds. Here is the walkers garage link Walkers garage clutch linkThe uprated link you showed me would be suitable, but to really count as an upgrade you really need to get an uparated cover plate, Walkers supply one that is 25% stronger clamping force, that will work well with the clutch you have shown me, or a GTA friction plate or one of Walkers own organic plates. Joe ps just rolling roaded and clutch is still holding at 363bhp and 323 lb/ft, with quite an aggressive boost setup..
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