new member looking for advice!

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new member looking for advice! #1454032 19/10/2013 14:55 19/10/2013 14:55
S soopcoop Unregistered
soopcoop Unregistered S	Hi all, first post as I'm looking for a coupe right now, always wanted one from when they first appeared! So I was looking for a turbo..and still am I suppose budget from 1500-2000, but I've found a non turbo 20v vis, not far from me in very good condition , low miles , cambelt done and tax/tested too! Question is will I be disappointed with a non turbo, I've had two mr2 turbos and 300zx turbo and from that I went to v6 FTO (manual) and I was really surprised at how quick it was even being used to the 3l turbo of the 300zx. Has anyone had any experience of both on here? Any help or advice welcome! Thanks Ed

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454050 19/10/2013 16:45 19/10/2013 16:45
N nismo Unregistered
nismo Unregistered N	Hi Ed , welcome to the forum , i would say go for the turbo as you have had turbo'd cars before so if you buy the n/a you will always wounder what the turbo is like to drive . i've had turbo'd car for the last 18 years and wouldn't go back to a n/a unless it was a high cc v6 or v8 but thats just me .

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454058 19/10/2013 17:07 19/10/2013 17:07
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,643 Watford MarioCirillo Ex El Presidente
MarioCirillo Ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,643 Watford	I have had both. . . My NA was an amazing car, always reliable, pulled well and sounded great. The only time you get turbo envy is when you are driving with/around other coupes and they leave you for stink My 20vt is great, pulls great, gives you the little thud in the back when you come on boost. It depends what you are after. If its the looks of the car that you like then changing the wheels on the NA and adding some skirts and lips will make a lovely car. If you are after power then you need to go for the turbos either 16vt or 20vt. Budget is also a big factor. Be prepared to spend money. The turbos while reliable will cost you considerably more to maintain compared to an NA. Also the temptation to modify is far far greater when we are talking about the turbos... My (old) 20V Non Turbo Add one Idiot Bus Driver to the Mix... Then I brought My LE Ok im done showing off now! Just make sure you look at a few and drive both before you comit! Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454070 19/10/2013 17:32 19/10/2013 17:32
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 5,015 ation szkom Club member 2000
szkom Club member 2000 Forum is my life Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 5,015 ation	I'd say turbo. My brother has a Bravo HGT vis, which is essentially the same as the car you're looking at, and while it moves plenty well enough it does feel flat compared to my turbo. Maybe try a couple before you decide.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454073 19/10/2013 17:45 19/10/2013 17:45
N nismo Unregistered
nismo Unregistered N	The turbo puts a smile on your face but not on the wallet

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454075 19/10/2013 17:55 19/10/2013 17:55
S soopcoop Unregistered
soopcoop Unregistered S	Originally Posted By: nismo Hi Ed , welcome to the forum , i would say go for the turbo as you have had turbo'd cars before as if you buy the n/a you will always wounder what the turbo is like to drive . i've had turbo'd car for the last 18 years and wouldn't go back to a n/a unless it was a high cc v6 or v8 but thats just me . Thanks nismo, yeh I think if I go n/a I will probably want a turbo very soon after, although I have been looking at what performance mods I could do already for the n/a on fc performance website...

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: MarioCirillo] #1454076 19/10/2013 17:58 19/10/2013 17:58
S soopcoop Unregistered
soopcoop Unregistered S	Thanks, and your LE looks damn amazing! Loving that!

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454084 19/10/2013 18:44 19/10/2013 18:44
Joined: May 2013 Posts: 156 Berkshire tim16v On a journey
tim16v On a journey Joined: May 2013 Posts: 156 Berkshire	Hi I think it depends on the condition of the turbos and whether they meet your requirements in terms of condition, the budget available and risk of near term expenditure etc. I was originally looking for a turbo and went to look at nine in the end. None were quite right for various reasons and, fed up, I was just about to give up on the whole thing when a really nice VIS appeared. Apart from meeting my main requirements in terms of condition and history etc, the test drive showed the car to be smooth with nice low down torque and an easy drive so I went for it. No addictive turbo shove but worth a look as it seems better than the on paper performance figures suggest as these cars are quite light weight. Tim

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: tim16v] #1454086 19/10/2013 19:01 19/10/2013 19:01
S soopcoop Unregistered
soopcoop Unregistered S	Hi Tim , Thanks and yeah, this vis that has turned up close to me , looks to be great just what I want cosmetically and if tomorrow when I take it for a drive if performs well ,I may well end up buying it, just hope that voice in my ear saying I should of waited for a turbo doesn't appear!

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454087 19/10/2013 19:04 19/10/2013 19:04
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means Gripped Club member 1924
Gripped Club member 1924 Forum is my job Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means	A note from an N/A owner. I have the VIS which has been mapped and new zorst, so it should have around 180bhp. This puts it in same bracket as our old Leon cupra 1.8 turbo. It is quick but obviously still some way off the turbo. I have had 2 na coupes now and I've held off getting the turbo due to running costs and the danger of buying a stinker. The na probably sounds as good AND you can drive it hard without getting too illegal All depends on whether you want it for outright power or just sound and looks? Also it might be harder to find a turbo which is in good nick compared to an NA. However if you want to do lots of modding, then it has to be the turbo. If I had the extra funds then perhaps I would consider one. Some people prefer the "purity" of an na engine.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: Gripped] #1454091 19/10/2013 19:23 19/10/2013 19:23
S soopcoop Unregistered
soopcoop Unregistered S	Originally Posted By: Gripped A note from an N/A owner. I have the VIS which has been mapped and new zorst, so it should have around 180bhp. This puts it in same bracket as our old Leon cupra 1.8 turbo. It is quick but obviously still some way off the turbo. I have had 2 na coupes now and I've held off getting the turbo due to running costs and the danger of buying a stinker. The na probably sounds as good AND you can drive it hard without getting too illegal All depends on whether you want it for outright power or just sound and looks? Also it might be harder to find a turbo which is in good nick compared to an NA. However if you want to do lots of modding, then it has to be the turbo. If I had the extra funds then perhaps I would consider one. Some people prefer the "purity" of an na engine. Thanks, 180Bhp sounds good with those mods, I've been looking at performance tuning for the vis already and to be honest if I can get 180-200Bhp from the vis, I'd maybe rather that than the turbo, and like you say the condition of the car is a big consideration too..

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454103 19/10/2013 20:35 19/10/2013 20:35
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,306 Kent, South East Cooperman Former Club Membership Secretary
Cooperman Former Club Membership Secretary My job on the forum Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,306 Kent, South East	As an NA owner have to say I think they sound better than the Turbo (IMHO ) I think the gearbox better also. Still have a fair turn of speed and do seem to have less gremlins at play. If you want to have the outright performance and ability to enter hyperspace then a turbo is likely for you

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: Cooperman] #1454105 19/10/2013 20:38 19/10/2013 20:38
P proccy Unregistered
proccy Unregistered P	I'd say test them both before deciding - they drive completely differently, i found it so easy to drive the VT version it's what i've always gone for

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454110 19/10/2013 21:21 19/10/2013 21:21
R richandnic Unregistered
richandnic Unregistered R	I entered the world of coupé owners earlier this year and had the same dilemma....i found a nice na and bought that. I've added a flea chip (8hp). I sometimes wonder if i should have bought a turbo. In the end i figured that i wanted a coop for its looks. The na is an easier every day car and has a great engine sound. It is an easy drive....5th gear around town but sounds great above 3500 rpm. Being a wimp, i am also mindful that it is a 20yr old design and stacking it into the back of the many tractors round our way is going to hurt and so the overall driving experience is more important than outright speed is more important to me. It is still a reasonably fast car. Decisions decisions!

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454113 19/10/2013 22:27 19/10/2013 22:27
S soopcoop Unregistered
soopcoop Unregistered S	It is a hard decision, so a flea chip? Do you have the 20v non vis?

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454118 19/10/2013 23:18 19/10/2013 23:18
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means Gripped Club member 1924
Gripped Club member 1924 Forum is my job Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means	The VIS has a different ECU to the standard na, so you can' t just chip it. You have to have it mapped "in person" as flea has to give it a custom map on a dyno. Mine went from 155 bhp to 169 then I added a k&n filter and a custom stainless cat back exhaust. Based on data from a good trawl of the web i estimated around 5% increase for the zorst and a bit extra for the filter. So estimated 175+ . The zorst definitely made a difference. So on a pre-VIS will be 147bhp plus a chip of 8bhp = 155 or same as the VIS. However my pre VIS was a different animal to my current car, so don't let it put you off the 147 model. The VIS is smoother but the 147 is more "racey" above 4,500rpm. Last edited by Gripped; 19/10/2013 23:25.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: MarioCirillo] #1454119 19/10/2013 23:33 19/10/2013 23:33
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means Gripped Club member 1924
Gripped Club member 1924 Forum is my job Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means	Originally Posted By: MarioCirillo I have had both. . . My NA was an amazing car, always reliable, pulled well and sounded great. The only time you get turbo envy is when you are driving with/around other coupes and they leave you for stink My 20vt is great, pulls great, gives you the little thud in the back when you come on boost. It depends what you are after. If its the looks of the car that you like then changing the wheels on the NA and adding some skirts and lips will make a lovely car. If you are after power then you need to go for the turbos either 16vt or 20vt. Budget is also a big factor. Be prepared to spend money. The turbos while reliable will cost you considerably more to maintain compared to an NA. Also the temptation to modify is far far greater when we are talking about the turbos... My (old) 20V Non Turbo Add one Idiot Bus Driver to the Mix... Then I brought My LE Ok im done showing off now! Just make sure you look at a few and drive both before you comit! Both your cars are stunning mate. Pity that bus driver wrecked one.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454120 19/10/2013 23:33 19/10/2013 23:33
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 8,960 west bromwich C coupedummy Je suis un Coupé
coupedummy Je suis un Coupé C Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 8,960 west bromwich	I have recently bought a new 20v non vis na. It does come alive around 4000rpm and plenty of power for general motoring. I wonder what a standard 20v na will remap to. The chip is generic so a map should get the most from it.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454125 19/10/2013 23:47 19/10/2013 23:47
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 360 Devon bruce01 Making a profit
bruce01 Making a profit Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 360 Devon	Looking at your previous cars, I would go for the turbo. I have a GTV v6 and have had Alfa 2.5 V6s and 2.0s before in the past. Nothing gives you the kick like the turbo does. It doesn't cost much to get more power if you are looking for it. Although above 260bhp expect to spend money. If you don't go for the turbo, there will always be that nagging feeling that you should have, no matter how pretty the NA is you might be looking at.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: coupedummy] #1454128 20/10/2013 00:02 20/10/2013 00:02
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,643 Watford MarioCirillo Ex El Presidente
MarioCirillo Ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,643 Watford	Originally Posted By: coupedummy I wonder what a standard 20v na will remap to. The chip is generic so a map should get the most from it. The chip for the 20v NA was made by Leighton mapping my NA. You don't get too much in terms of power. 7-8bhp... but wow it makes a difference to the responsiveness of the car! Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454130 20/10/2013 00:25 20/10/2013 00:25
Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 8,960 west bromwich C coupedummy Je suis un Coupé
coupedummy Je suis un Coupé C Joined: Sep 2006 Posts: 8,960 west bromwich	Maybe the chip for me then..

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454132 20/10/2013 00:46 20/10/2013 00:46
Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,643 Watford MarioCirillo Ex El Presidente
MarioCirillo Ex El Presidente I AM a Coop Joined: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,643 Watford	Trust me.... it transforms the car! Last edited by MarioCirillo; 20/10/2013 00:52. Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454133 20/10/2013 02:19 20/10/2013 02:19
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 380 Stalybridge, Manchester R redjon Making a profit
redjon Making a profit R Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 380 Stalybridge, Manchester	soopcoop i had a 20vt 5 years ago then it died and i got a NA civic type r ep3, the vtec engine was throwing out 200bhp & it was fast but it just didnt give the same tingly feeling you get from a turbo kicking in and so i sold it my son and bought another 20vt a couple months ago cos i needed that turbo rush in my driving so what im saying is get a turbo or you will never feel satisfied with a coop na as good as they are they always aspire to be their big brother

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: ] #1454142 20/10/2013 07:34 20/10/2013 07:34
D Davie Unregistered
Davie Unregistered D	The ideal compromise is a 20v vis for a daily and 20vt for the weekend

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: Gripped] #1454149 20/10/2013 08:26 20/10/2013 08:26
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,192 Bristol, UK H Hovedan Forum is my life
Hovedan Forum is my life H Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,192 Bristol, UK	Originally Posted By: Gripped A note from an N/A owner. I have the VIS which has been mapped and new zorst, so it should have around 180bhp. When I had Custard (my yellow VIS), this was remapped (original guinea pig) by Flea. It made 165bhp, this was with a custom 'zorst (standard bore as na's need back pressure from exhaust for torque). The zorst gives a nicer note, but no real performance gains. As for a k&n filter or cone, other than more increased noise in the induction part, I actually found this to be detrimental to the original airbox for performance, so I ultimately reverted it to standard induction. The only way you'll hit the 180-200 bracket is to do the 2.4 conversion. Other than that, I loved the VIS's peppy performance, certainly for local driving and roads up to 50 mph, there's no real benefits to have from having a turbo! All that, and less to go wrong, great oil pressure, glorious soundtrack and all the style that a coupe brings! Originally Posted By: Davie The ideal compromise is a 20v vis for a daily and 20vt for the weekend Exactly what I had Currently tracking Renault 182

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: Hovedan] #1454157 20/10/2013 09:32 20/10/2013 09:32
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means Gripped Club member 1924
Gripped Club member 1924 Forum is my job Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means	Originally Posted By: Hovedan [quote=Gripped] When I had Custard (my yellow VIS), this was remapped (original guinea pig) by Flea. It made 165bhp, this was with a custom 'zorst (standard bore as na's need back pressure from exhaust for torque). The zorst gives a nicer note, but no real performance gains. As for a k&n filter or cone, other than more increased noise in the induction part, I actually found this to be detrimental to the original airbox for performance, so I ultimately reverted it to standard induction. The only way you'll hit the 180-200 bracket is to do the 2.4 conversion. I agree that I need to substantiate my power estimate via a new dyno run. My remap made a measured 169bhp on standard everything. As for the cat-back zorst, there are some fairly convincing scientific tests on the web showing [I think] about 5% increase or thereabouts, meaning 177bhp without considering the K&N. This is on the basis of a proper custom made system. Since the zorst was fitted, the pick up and acceleration are definitely better, and the guy from Prospeed (long term expert in the field) told me it would definitely have a positive effect. As for the K&N, I've read around the subject, and I think it is fairly even, for and against. I'm experimenting with mine to see what difference it makes. I never stated I was in the 180-200 bracket though. Clearly, this is turbo territory.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: redjon] #1454159 20/10/2013 09:41 20/10/2013 09:41
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means Gripped Club member 1924
Gripped Club member 1924 Forum is my job Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 3,609 S. Wales. Way beyond my means	Originally Posted By: redjon ....... what im saying is get a turbo or you will never feel satisfied with a coop na as good as they are they always aspire to be their big brother Not sure I can agree. The 20V NA existed in its own right in the Coupe, Bravo HGT and Marea, and then in 2.4 form in the Stilo. So, you could say that the NA is the purer experience. As many say, the driving experience completely different - since they have a different gearbox, clutch, steering rack, brakes, wheels etc. Don't get me wrong, if I had the cash I'd have one of each. Member of the downtrodden NA for President Club. Last edited by Gripped; 20/10/2013 09:42.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: Gripped] #1454187 20/10/2013 13:50 20/10/2013 13:50
Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 296 Boston, UK Spoonz Making a profit
Spoonz Making a profit Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 296 Boston, UK	Mario, you shouldn't post pictures of your LE and Ex 20v, thats pure car porn . The 20v N/A is perfect for everyday driving and if your lucky you can hit 35/36 Mpg. My flea chipped 20v is great, has a perfect amount of grunt to overtake and torque is readily availiable, and a raised rev limiter which means 60mph in 5th sits at 2750rpm rather than 3,000rpm. no one should knock the N/a, its a fantastic engine with enough power to put a smile on your face. Last edited by Spoonz; 20/10/2013 13:52. Signature to large. 300 x 100 max

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: Spoonz] #1454195 20/10/2013 16:12 20/10/2013 16:12
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 21,517 Aldershot PeteP Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary
PeteP Hon Club Member 005, Membership Secretary Forum Fossil Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 21,517 Aldershot	Originally Posted By: Spoonz and a raised rev limiter which means 60mph in 5th sits at 2750rpm rather than 3,000rpm. Not sure what you mean there? 16VT and X1/9 1500 We must all do our part for the planet. I unplugged a row of electric cars that nobody was using.

Re: new member looking for advice! [Re: PeteP] #1454212 20/10/2013 17:45 20/10/2013 17:45
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,192 Bristol, UK H Hovedan Forum is my life
Hovedan Forum is my life H Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 6,192 Bristol, UK	Originally Posted By: petep Originally Posted By: Spoonz and a raised rev limiter which means 60mph in 5th sits at 2750rpm rather than 3,000rpm. Not sure what you mean there? I thought that when I read it earlier. Only gearing changes can affect that? Currently tracking Renault 182

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