I'm not avoiding the matter at all, I addressed it several posts ago. I'm happy to admit that it's probably a worse place, but I believe it will get better, although it make take a while.

I do not believe Mandela was a saint, as you will see from my posts.

But I believe that Apartheid was an unforgiveable stain on the Afrikaner legacy. And on any white South African who cannot bring themselves to accept it.

South Africa faces a terribly difficult and uncertain future - with massive challenges like HIV/AIDS. It may well be that whilst a minority profits, the majority suffers either economically or in other ways (sound familiar?). The difference is that your belief that life under Apartheid was better in any meaningful way for black people is indicative to me that you belive that white people are superior to blacks.

Hence the question.

Careful, Jim, last time I accused him of being a r*cist I got an out-and-out threat for my trouble.

The black people that have been brought up by the apartheid ethos, including the next generation who heard all about it, will not assume country-running skills all at once.

The pendulum will have to be allowed to swing first one way then the other before an acceptable balance is achieved. Our perennial problem as a race is to keep a check on the swing going too far and therefore returning too far in the other direction.

I still suspect that your strong opinions have emerged from an injustice that has befallen you or your family during an over-energetic swing in one direction. You couldn't be making up your vehemence just in order to upset other people, that would be trolling afaik.

And no, it's possible that SA is not yet a "better" place in some respects - as agreed above it's going to take time. I was once advised if I didn't agree with something to join the organisation as I would have a better chance of influencing its decisions. It was a Trade Union in the 70's.

I sit on the same line of thought as Jim with regard to Mr Mandela.

I save my distaste of terroist politicians nearer to home.

I think Edinburh's comment about Pero's strong opinions carry some wieght.

But lets not play a game of goading and just enjoy a debate about the most current subject of news today.

The thing is, under Zuma, it's only getting worse. Africa as a continent can't be trusted to self-govern. It's not going to get better in the next century.

Just been watching old news footage of Thatcher pontificating about "terrorists".

All but made me bring up my dinner.



Mandela's silent magnanimity in their subsequent meeting would have had the maximum crushing effect on the former PM.

One person that understands the African mentality.

Without getting involved in the Apartheid/SA discussion I can empathise with Biggenz. If he is a SA than Mandela represents a terrorist organisation whose means were not justified by the end.

Stuff your one man's freedom fighter argument. People who bomb and murder innocent civilians are terrorist murdering scum. Particulalrly cowardly as they rely on the rule of law when they are dealt with. I for one hope I live long enough to see Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness shuffle off this mortal coil, hopefully very painfully. My only regret is that by not beliving in the greater spirit I know they won't be joining Hitler, Stalin, Poht, Saville in a deeply unpleasant place for all of eternity.

As an example.

IMHO it's more to do with people rather than skin-colour. You get similar "types" in whichever country you might visit.

After the demise of Franco there was so much potential hostility accumulated, in whose reign brother was pitted against brother, that the Spanish government had the foresight to impose an embargo upon any investigation of atrocity, any research, any public discussion for a period of 25 years.

In other words a generation would have to pass before the need for revenge and retribution would have a chance to simmer down. Insufferably hard no doubt for the wronged families but a practical way to avoid continuing bloodshed.

And there is the golden nugget.

As a Scots friend of mine once said, "There is good and bad in every nationality" Although he undermined that by adding "Except the Welsh. I hate the Welsh!"

Much better now.

I too now hate the French now they have a better draw in World Cup than England

I've held of posting until now, but I've never read a post containing so many polarized, skewed and unbalanced (ok too many similar long words but you get the gist) viewpoints and scantily veiled racism and xenaphobia in years.

And leave off the Welsh or we'll turn your water off !

If you turn our water off, where will you send your sewage

Great response. Naaah, we keep the sewage for the blue bottles of Ty Nant water and sell it to the Americans.

This has descended into racism; not acceptable on this forum.

You're all entitled to your views but this is not the place to air them.

The comment from Adam about being 'trusted to self-govern' is particularly offensive.

Consider this thread closed.

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