What ever happens regarding Europe, I would put money on that Scotland would not leave the Union more so now for obvious reasons, referendum or not. Perhaps as a proud Scotsman I care what's happening to my part of the country.

I've actually traveled all over the UK in my time, both business & pleasure & mostly liked what I came across. The natives were very friendly. This country that we all live in is still an interesting wee bit of land to do our thing on....We have but a short time to make our own mark on things.

Agreed Jim, fortune favours the brave I believe so I hope we can have the courage to make the most of the opportunities that come our way.

out, end of

That reasoning for leaving seems pretty prevalent.

Charlie, I forgot the way you like to debate. Mind, I couldn't see anything on that link which stated that the idea was to prevent any further wars between "France and Germany", which apparently was the cause of "two really rather large wars".

I was under the impression that WW2 started with the German Invasion of Poland in Sept 39. Not as the result of hostilities between France and Germany.

Please miss, it all started when he hit me back.

In, with border controls

Looks like we'll be discussion Hitler next!

It's funny how a lot of people like to think of the Fiat Coupe as a little Ferrari, and if the UK leaves the EU and Fiat ever replace the Coupe, we will all have to pay Ferrari prices to buy it. Strange how quickly people forget about import taxes, passport regulations and visas, ease of travel etc when you take their absence for granted. Even the cost of buying little things from the EU will rocket once HMRC add on import tax and postage costs like they do for stuff sourced in the US. There are also currently 5 million Brits living abroad. Where do we put them all if the countries they live in decide to send them back?

I'm out.

In for me.

The fact Gove is in the 'out' camp cemented my decision!

Any chance of a Mod adding a Poll to this thread?

yes please to passport controls and visas a an Aussie style points system, as for import taxes I don't recall that being a barrier to trade pre EU membership. It was a factor that was taken into consideration when you bought something just like the old purchase tax system.

I did think that Gove may sour some people's thoughts to join the out camp!
But then your friendly clown Borris may of slightly balanced that out? Maybe?

Your right didn't there used to be the commonwealth before Euro trade was sorted as I remember it used to cost more to send a letter to Sweden Than to france/ mainland Europe as Sweden were not a member

So there will not be any significant trade issues if we are out as has been stated on the news, the Germans will still want to sell us their bmw's, mercs, audi's etc. The French their peugeots citroens renault's and nuclear energy Italy fiats ferraris Alfa's electrical items etc. Etc.
The whole trade thing is scaremongering people/ businesses will still be able to negotiate a decent deal

Consider it added.

Stay in the EU or leave? single choice
	Leave the EU
	Stay in the EU
Votes accepted starting: 22/02/2016 10:15 You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

Just imagine - we might end up out of Europe and having to re-invent British Leyland...

This thread proves what frustrates me about this issue: everybody is bandying around "facts" and figures and general "reckons", but none of us has any real, unbiased data to work with. Anyone who supplies figures on "how much the EU costs UK taxpayers" will have an agenda and exagerrate the costs, whilst writing down the benefits. Conversely, the In campaign will include intangible benefits to make the cost look lower.

The bottom line is that we don't know. None of us. The decision will be taken on guesses and how people feel, rather than evidence.

I think the Out campaign will win and we will then reap what we have (un)sown.
There will doubtless be costs to the UK economy as a result of leaving; our European trading partners will still want to sell to us, but will they want to buy from us as much? Will a "liberated" UK be able to make better deals with other markets? Selling "security" technology to dodgy regimes with no pesky EU interference. Or will we be begging for crumbs at the large trading blocs' tables? Again, I don't know the answer (and nor does anyone, whatever they tell you).

Being a natural pessimist, I believe the majority of people in the UK will vote to leave the EU because of immigration. We are an island race, and not a very nice one, looking at our history. We've never bought into the "greater Europe" ideal, which is not surprising, because we aren't a part of it.

What CharlieCroker said above is largely true: France and Germany are the power behind the EU, on the basis that they have been locked in a post-WWII embrace to prevent another conflict between them. They (and the other main nations except Spain) believe in "closer European Union" as an ideal to avoid conflict and I believe that we Brits don't get that in the same way, because our experience of the war was so different (i.e. our territory wasn't invaded).

Because I find many of the Out campaigners so nauseating, (George Galloway, Theresa May and Nigel Farage on the same platform...?), I would find it hard to vote that way, but the In campaign scarcely seems to exist in the media, which is another issue: "staying in, as we are, steady-as-she-goes" is not a newsworthy story, whereas "storming out" sells papers or clicks.

One last ramble: If the UK does vote to leave the EU, that will be it. There won't be another chance to rejoin. We'd best hope the bed we have made is comfortable, because we'll be lying on it forever.

Er, where is the "Haven't decided/don't know" button?!

Jim, from the list I've seen regarding Tory MPs, Theresa May is in the 'In' camp.

Not that it makes her any less nauseating.

Agreed, and this could be as good a reason as any to vote out as some may say a lack of knowledge in the smaller environment of the UK is easier to cope with than the murky distance of Brussels administration.

Also true about making the bed and lying in it but as I understand it that works both ways!

It's a lottery. In or out we will never know if it was the correct decision anyway.

Your Right Jim!
But we are not able to get sufficiently acceptable terms as Cameron has just demonstrated, so its never going to get much better!
We are a magnet to the eu migrants that want to work as much as the ones that don't want to, but its the ones that don't want to that spoil it, even though i'm sure there are more Brits that don't want to work than eu migrants

For me in the jobs market in the UK its a race to the bottom, the businesses are taking total advantage of the situation whilst the true cost of living just keeps going up!

How can it be right that people can go to work and still not earn enough to live, with the government then having to subsidise family income to make it bearable!

The employment market has just become too greedy with their profits and tax avoidance! thats where the real issue is, but the wages are being driven down by the "supply and demand" of a desperate workforce due to the competitiveness of the employees coming from poorer countries and wondering what we are all moaning about.
Remember not all of them are investing in this country, so its sustainable for a few years whilst the money is sent back to their country to pay of the mortgage that is possibly a fraction of ours so they will go back being very comfortable when the bubble burst's whilst we will be left to pick up the austerity again!

Not all migrants are bad but in my opinion its not good for the unskilled labour market, unless you own a business that employs unskilled!

A few weeks ago there was a guy on the radio that stated back in the 70's that the No campaign had predicted all the issues and got everything pretty much correct where the yes was way of the mark! possibly true, is history going to repeat itself?

What happened in history to change the stay at home parent to now, where both parents need to work unless one has a very well paid job! what caused that transition? i honestly don't know? was that anything to do with the eu?

If im honest im really uncertain which is best but sometimes continuing with the status quo is not always the best option!

I saw this and made an assumption!:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopi...ave-the-EU.html

I saw this and also made an assumption:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35616946

I guess she's waiting to see which way the wind is blowing. Either way, she's the person I'm most scared of in British politics. Never mind Boris, May is lining up the PM's job!

How many of the Out people thought that Scotland should remain in the Union? There's quite a lot of parallels.

I'm quite surprised that Boris is on the Out side - I wonder if that's tactical from a leadership point of view. I'm just listening to his audiobook on Churchill and he sounds quite pro-EU in that.

And, whilst I agree with Jim that we don't have all the info, it does feel like some people are voting for anything but the status quo in the hope that it will fix something. This was quite prevalent in the Scottish debate. This is the issue with a referendum: there's only one issue to get to grips with. In a general election you can go with the party you feel best represents your views. With this you need to understand at least some of the debate.

I saw an alleged quote from Boris Johnson yesterday, saying that he is a fervent European, but loathes what the EU has become. There's a lot of sympathy for that view, too.



A very pertinent phrase, MRS!

I'm struggling with the Importance of Boris.

He's had two terms at London Mayor and so far his greatest hits are the world's most expensive and least-used chair lift, multi-million pound state-funding for his friends' pet-projects - overdesigned buses and pretty bridges, and the selling of public space to private foreign investment. He's done jack-all, except perpetuate this bumbly, dithery facade. The bloke's been a traitor to the city, can't imagine what he'd do for the country.

From a purely personal point of view I need a few questions answered as a Brit living in France.

I had worked in the uk for over 31 years and at the moment I will be able to draw full basic uk state pension when I am of retirement age.
Will that stay the same? Or will the government pull the rug on expats at some point?

Could France chuck me out and confiscate my assets?

I am thinking about taken French citizenship in order to cushion any future problems.

Am I worrying to much?

Will my air and ferrie costs go up?

Joe, I think you're right to stay informed, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were some minor penalising of ex-pats as a political gesture, if the UK leaves the EU. However, I'd be surprised if all of the reciprocal arrangements are abandoned. I'd better look at the small print myself, as I paid into the URSSAF pot for almost 20 years!
Not sure what it'll mean for my business, either...
Cheap flights could be at an end if the EU decides to tax flights to/from non-EU destinations. However, Ryanair (EU) flies to Turkey, etc...