China isn't a good example at all, you manage trade with tariffs. Wealth is created through proper management.

China is in the poop, we all know this. It's the perfect example of how to out grow your customers through slave labour and under cutting at any cost. Not exactly a model for socio-economic success.

As I said, and you proved my point, there are what ifs for everything - claims can then be put against them to say why they won't work. But as with all claims, it's all what ifs. Shame that there are so many negative people that don't want to see or believe it can work because it needs to, the votes over MRS - time for it to be sucked up and got on with.

China is a very good example of opening up and becoming successful. As I've said before, there's issues there of different sorts but how successful was China before it opened up to the world? I go there 4 or 5 times a year and started a factory there 12 years ago spending 9 months living and working with Chinese people. I now work with the Chinese government (regulators) and businesses. I used to be responsible for several factories in China. If you have better experience, let me know.

What Ifs are fine if they have any basis in reality.

We'll survive but I can't for the life of me understand what people think is going to happen.

As I've said before, I've sucked it up. It's those poor buggers who think this is going to make things better. I guess they'll just need to find somebody else to blame when they need to be looking in the mirror.

China was successful because of its abuse of its population, that to me is not success. Stick a living wage in there and the place would have collapsed.

Yes, I was an accountant for a firm that sourced some 300m goods pa from China for the UK highstreet. Please don't assume Im talking from fiction, I always try and speak from experience. You may have heard of Li and fung.

Which of my what ifs weren't based in reality, all were perfect examples of positive sides of actual events.

I've said today, I think we've got 7-10 years before we settle into something of 'normal'. There's alot of pain coming before anything improves, a whole generation of school leavers who could well suffer for it.

Nail on the head.

Gents - before I write anything about this, have either of you got direct experience with real working Chinese people on an extensive basis - ie living and working with them? Being an accountant for a firm that bought stuff from China probably describes just about every company accountant everywhere.

As for What Ifs, I've answered all 3.

Yes. Look up Li and fung.
I have spoken to more, visited, worked with more Chinese than anyone else. I have seen tha facade factory's established as fronts to slave labour, I've seen the fines that arrive when a customer pays for an inspection on the spot and the facade has fallen. I've also worked with the men who were the first in the UK to mass import product from the far east (Peter Black) so yes, I know alot about China and where it was.

I've seen the better side too, some of the giant live in factories are very good compared to where they've been. But then they aren't as cheap as they were as a result hence there issues now.

My experience on this is between 5 and 13 years old.

As I answered your scenarios with the potential positive. Sometimes good things come from bad.

So what did those Chinese shop floor workers tell you about their lives? Where are those Chinese shop floor workers now? What's the quality of life those people have now versus that which they had 10 years ago and the lives their parents had? What's healthcare provision like now versus 20 years ago?

They've gone through in the space of a decade or two what it took Europe 100-150 years to go through. Were these people living an idyllic life before those nasty westerners took advantage of them?

Now? I said IT WAS BUILT ON, now it's falling down.
I don't know where they are now, some will be dead. Some will have been worked to death. Some will have made millions and be the new rich in China.

Define idillyc.
they probably had a simple spiritual life. One without the trappings and tortures of materiality. What do they have now? The same shit as us, a life dependent on Bix sets, big tvs and money.

I know one thing, you can't answer your own questions.

Many of the factory workers I saw looked unhappy, tired and generally dishevelled. Promises broken would be a description.

As for there feelings, I don't know as they didn't speak English and I don't speak any Chinese dialect and no-one I was with would have translated as they could easily have disappeared.
Maybe the China you see isn't the one I saw,making clothes, bags and shoes. Small children making cheap jewellery. But it's a fact, it was there not 10 years ago.

What do the factory workers tell you? Do they get a living wage? 37 hour week? 5 weeks holiday a year? Or are they still not up to European (oh bugger) standards?

So I'm really interested in the Chinese story. I met their parents, their families their kids, ate in the places they ate and generally tried to get under the skin of the place during the 9 months I lived there as the only westerner in an entirely Chinese team. I've been back a lot since and I'm keen to understand the changes - especially in the quality of life. If you think it's falling down, you've been away too long.

As I've said before, they've still got some way to go - but the roads are stuffed full of better cars than you'll see in the UK and people look very happy and incredibly affluent. There's far less corruption and the government are even bringing in competition to regulators - the place is almost unrecognisable from even 10 years ago. Of course they're not all up to European standards - though, if you take a Eastern Europe, they're much closer than I think you realise. And they see it as all very positive. They see that it was a necessary step to get where they want to be. They've leapfrogged many countries in the space of a couple of decades. Trying to put European values against them is to misunderstand them entirely.

I can't write what I would like to write. I'd have to ban myself.

I have watched a nation rip itself apart, driven by self-seeking demagogues and those who would rather rule a political party than keep the country in a sane place.

Thanks, guys.

^ agreed.

0nly 5 - £6000. Sorry quick of the cuff post relying on my teenagers-data telling me of a peak percentage drop of of around 12% on the dollar not the Euro. An

Villa prices have already gone up since Tuesday I will be paying more for my euros But hey all the figures quoted have been made up anyway. .
I reckon I'll lose about 350 million each week of my holiday..

Nah, you'll gain 350 million each week as it won't be going to those nice people in Brussels.

Yeah - The NHS will be fixed by the time you get back - extra £350m a week and none of those pesky foreigners - simples

I have just spent 3 weeks in the cities of Qingdao, Rizhao, Caofedian and Beijing, hence missing out on the scottish road trip in my Coupe.

This was my second visit to China in the past 8 months. What i see is poor communities with very rich affluent people. Never seen so many high end very expensive cars in one place.

From what i saw, a typical Manager earns in USD circa $900 a month. Property seems not cheap either, but they do build apartment towers dam quick.

Yes with empty oil cans as part of the structure

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35515749

The one thing that glues the members on here together is the Coop. I'm a people person & it's almost like a hobby, not so much these days, but there was a time I would've went to an envelope opening, if the Coop was involved had I owned one.

My point, it really is quite surprising on how people react & post their views on here about the historic event that has just happened. I was, in my 40's a member of a group that went out & made money for charities, a body that was all over Britain & beyond. I say this as I quickly realised that this was also a platform for not only playing/partying, there seemed to be some political wannabes & saw fit to speak their mind.

At least it was live, although at that time I just let things wash over me. It's just too easy to say things & that includes myself, but without overstating I certainly think that some views on here regarding the EU are certainly not prevalent in every area of Britain. As I've said before postcode lottery... You see what you want to see in your wee bit of the UK.

I would never see myself as an expert & perhaps I' ve been lucky & jobwise secure. That's just my neck of the woods, but some on here seem to think & speak for the future of all of the UK.........

Excuse my ignorance,is there such a thing as a Welsh or Scottish passport? Or is it just a British one?

Family in NI are talking about applying for an Irish one.

Is that a possibility?

Hi Joe, how are you? Passport wise it's British, although every where I'm asked what nationality I'm Scottish.....

Yes but he's only going to Saltcoats

It is indeed possible Joe.

Basically anyone who can show that at least I person in their bloodline (going back to Grandparents) was born in Ireland, either side of the border, is able to apply for an Irish passport/citizenship.

Once that has been granted any of that persons descendants is similarly entitled.

There was something on the BBC.com News about it.

I can no longer find the original article,but this touches on the topic

I'm tempted to finally do something about my right to St Kitts-Nevis citizenship.

Simon, you'll need a permanent holiday in England with your mate Farage, as that's the only way your going to get out of being governed by Europe now.

Just saying.

Nearer the coop specialists at least

Wouldn't if be funny if Nige drove a coop.....

He'd fit right-in in this club.

Nige

He'd have been banned - years ago.

No reason...

If the economy takes a serious medium/long term hit, it will be the whole of the UK though. Areas of the UK don't matter. The latest news regarding our credit rating drop won't be selective.

On a different note, please don't leave us, I still want to be able to support Andy Murray. He's half the reason you see the GB flag on the TV these days

A Prime Minister resigned. The £ plummeted. The FTSE 100 lost significant ground. But then the £ rallied past February levels, and the FTSE closed on a weekly high: 2.4% up on last Friday, its best performance in 4 months. President Obama decided we wouldn't be at the 'back of the queue' after all and that our 'special relationship' was still strong. The French President confirmed the Le Touquet agreement would stay in place. The President of the European Commission stated Brexit negations would be 'orderly' and stressed the UK would continue to be a 'close partner' of the EU. A big bank denied reports it would shift 2,000 staff overseas. The CBI, vehemently anti-Brexit during the referendum campaign, stated British business was resilient and would adapt. Several countries outside the EU stated they wished to begin bi-lateral trade talks with the UK immediately. If this was the predicted apocalypse, well, it was a very British one. It was all over by teatime. Not a bad first day of freedom.

I saw the exact same as that you said on Facebook maybe an hour ago