Jim, there is no doubt that claims made by the company are laudable but you have to admit that those claims come with a lot of baggage.

The business has an extreme GREEN agenda and peddles this agenda through both their vision statement and their lobbying of government. This lobbying isn't limited to their energy supply business, their green agenda is looking to influence many aspects of UK life, including food and transport. Sadly a lot of this green agenda is based upon deeply biased challengeable science, skewed by a vegan political agenda. Take the beef argument. UK beef and milk production industry has proved it is far less damaging than the vegan environmental lobby would like. So they continue to use, outdated, world beef production figures to try and destroy the industry in the UK. Ecotricity are one of the key lobbyists on this issue, so yes I will remain a vocal opponent of their agenda, despite sharing some similar environmental goals.

NFU Myth buster


The whole "Climate" issue is a fabulous political gift. Any benefits, or mistakes are going to be so long term it is unlikely that much will change in a politicians political career, or even lifetime. This enables them to make bold statements and receive little or no comeback! The worst aspect of all this is that the greenest way forward is being mostly overlooked and ignored. If policy dictated that every new build had solar power, or locally supplied green energy as part of the planning process this would bring the greatest green win for the country. The government does offer green initiatives but getting these grants is not easy. The green grants come from government spending and so it's far easier for the government to push the RO route because that, increasing funding levy, will come from increasing energy bills, not government funding, it's an indirect tax that will rise significantly between now and 2050! The RO agreement has enabled some new energy suppliers look like saints, at the expense of the more established businesses. Sadly these small companies generate a miniscule amount of the total electricity network supply.

My PPI example was based upon it being discovered, in the future, that companies have exceeded their 100% renewables claim. Maybe the Diesel emission's scandal would have been a better analogy.

For example:

Barymbob electricity generate and annual 50 MW of power from our solar farm. We currently sell our 50 MW to the grid so we can then sell 50 MW of electricity to our customers. Firstly many of our customers have electric cars which they charge at night and our solar farm isn't generating at night, so maybe we're failing to deliver 100% renewable, so I guess we are claiming an average annual usage calculation, and not a real world use. Hopefully our customers are clear on this.

Now Let's assume we've done well and we're selling close to our 50 MW to our customers. Then for some reason, either due to our supply issues, or significant increased demand from our customer base, maybe due to more of them buying electric cars or dumping gas at home and going electric, our generation falls well short of our sales. Clearly we would not have supplied 100% renewable to our customers.

Hopefully we are also applying the 7.5% power distribution losses to our sales vs generation capacity.

BarmyBob, I'm glad we're clear then, it is personal!

I couldn't work out why you would use such emotive terms:- "extreme green" "peddling an agenda" and criticise "deeply biased challengeable (?) science", then use an NFU document as evidence to back that up unless there was something a little irrational behind it. I'm sure you'll spare me the effort of pointing out the irony!

There is, as you're doubtless well aware, plenty of research on both sides of the argument, but I'd be a little careful not to let your own (initially undeclared) bias write cheques your evidence can't cash!

There is certainly a full-blooded (?) discussion to be had about veganism and "extreme" greenery, but I'd rather not take this thread so tangentially off topic.

On the point of the 100% renewable energy promise, vehicle manufacturers set out to con the general public with their emissions fraud. What evidence do you have to support a comparison with Ecotricity's claim made in good faith (and so far, accurately)? It is highly implausible that your scenario would come to pass, given the intense scrutiny that such claims are rightly subjected to (ditto the distribution losses - are you seriously suggesting Ecotricity forgot about those and nobody reminded them?). In the unlikely event that it did happen, I suspect that it would present a fantastic opportunity to plead the case for more renewables to keep up with demand.

I can't help thinking that this is just a bit more "I don't like this guy's politics (or his diet!), so I'm going to rubbish his company a bit more with a scenario I just thought up".

Back to the Corsa (phew!). It - unlike certain other things - is coming home tomorrow, but with no apparent cause or fix. I'll know more when I speak to the guy, but apparently it charged again at the garage's charger to 100%, so the focus returns potentially to our Rolec device.
We've asked a neighbour to try charging his Leaf with it, which might tell us something. As long as the Corsa doesn't leave MrsC stranded, I'll put up with a few teething troubles, but if it goes on much longer without an explanation or resolution, we might have to press the lease company for a replacement.

Jim, I would just like to remind you that it was you who advised me to read his book, and it was you that brought up the business in this thread. I would like to believe that the business wouldn't error or fudge figures. But they do already claim, on their website, that the UK has 30% green energy, in the national energy mix

I have genuinely been interested in your thoughts and feedback on living with an electric vehicle. As stated previously I have been considering dumping my dirty diesel and going for an electric on lease, for commuting duties for my last few years at work. I have road tested the E-UP, and the Mini E which were both fun. When I had the garage re-built last year I even made provisions for the fitting a home EV charger. I also came to the conclusion that if I was going EV I would like to have solar installed too, so I had the site survey for that undertaken. However, the loss of the old feed in tariff scheme has made home solar a much more complex market, you must now make a tie in deal with a supplier, This is the local company I was looking at. It is impossible to know if any investment in this area would be reflected on my house price, local estate agent was clueless, so as we plan to move in the next few years the investment would appear to be far too risky, for me.

Sadly despite a desire to follow your lead it does seem that my best environmental and economic decision would be to keep what I have until we sell up and move away from here.

I am starting to consider an EV vehicle as a genuine contender for the next car.

BUT. The impact on the environment to make it. The Life cycle of the battery-likely 70% value of the car when it dies according to car media I recent cost reviews. The impact on the environment for the new battery. The lack of recharging network. The time to recharge. And limited range -especially on a cold, wet, wintry day when you need lights, heaters, A/C and electric screen de-mist- all put me off a little.

Interesting to see and hear those who are dipping a toe.

I can see these as a future option-but only when the range and green damage is greatly resolved. But interesting first steps.

Regards

MM

Bob, I did recommend Dale Vince's book (did you read it?) and I brought Ecotricity into the discussion in the context of an energy supplier about which I know something (not a lot, maybe, but more than others). But if I'm biased, I freely and transparently admit it and don't attempt to "peddle an agenda" to coin a phrase, pouring scorn on something because I harbour a grudge against a person. I think James Dyson is a c**t, but a) he might actually be very nice and b) I wouldn't say his innovations are a pile of crap because of my personal views on him. I absolutely don't support all of Dale's causes (I'm not vegan and I'm no fan of Extinction Rebellion, for example), but I admire his activism and passion that has found a practical outlet that benefits everyone. Is there another supplier doing more to grow renewable energy? Ironically, because I work for Ecotricity, I now cost the company more than I contribute in bills. Funny old world...

I could be wrong, (and I'm afraid I'm not going to go to great lengths to find out), but I suspect every energy company in the UK will have statistics on their websites that are questionable. There is probably a way to look at the figures that makes the 33% claim stand up, but regardless, I would argue that it's a long way from using a single (famously flexible) statistic to promote a business on a website, to lying wholesale about everything your company exists to provide.


Anyway, back on topic - I'm genuinely glad to hear my absurdly long ramblings have attracted some readers and some debate.

I think you are probably right about your old Audi, Bob, for the reasons you mention. Unlike you, we were in a position where we were about to move to a long-term home, with a solar installation, where paying for a wall charger made sense, although I still think the cost of these is an outrage. Our ICE car was at an economic crossroads and we didn't have too many choices we could afford.

I admit that the long-term, overall cost to the environment of getting an EV was not factored into our decision. We are pretty strategic in some ways, but here our thinking didn't extend beyond a solution to MrsC's commuting problem. Generally - and rightly -, this is something that is becoming harder and harder to ignore, but it's not always easy to be good.

Now that global legacy car makers and many new "agile" players have thrown in their hand with EV's, the automotive world is heading down that road, whether or not it proves to be the future. My experience has told me that much of what is out there is underdeveloped. Vauxhall are clearly learning about EV's along with their customers, which isn't a confidence-builder. And the app that is supposed to provide so much useful information is utter gash, from failing to connect and give charging info, to erroneously insisting that our car requires a service. I hope that the charging network is actually close to a tipping point - it really doesn't need that much to make it satisfactory, although it's going to get a whole lot busier over the next few years.

For the moment, I'm still prepared to continue on our electric journey with Vauxhall, but I firmly believe that in a very few years' time, every aspect of EV's will improve almost beyond recognition.

Master_Mariner - you pays your money and you takes your choice in terms of research about which is worse for the environment over its entire lifetime - an ICE car or an EV.

What absolutely kills range is not heating/AC/wipers/lights, it's motorway speeds. If you home charge and know your departure time, you can use mains power to set your EV battery and cabin to the optimum temperature; maintaining it takes less juice.

Charging times are mainly a problem if you a) don't have home charging and b) can't charge at a location where you would normally remain for the time of a charge.

Sorry I.ve not replied sooner, just done a run of 12 hour shifts eat, sleep, work repeat .



Obviously the title was intriguing, I had a kindle voucher so I decided to take a look. There were some interesting perspectives but there is also fair bit of me against the world. To be honest I didn't last long before skimming through to the end. You can't doubt his commitment to the cause, he certainly places his money where his mouth is. But many of the solutions, to the hugely complex environmental challenges, were naively simplistic. Rather than this manifesto offering compelling argument for the cause, and offering a real platform for reasoned debate, it came across more as a sermon for his followers.

On car news, I have a valuation appointment booked for my RS and I've been offered a few days with Audi electric demonstrator, sadly not an Etron GT. I might take the offer but in all honesty if, and it's a big if, I do sell the RS I'll probably just keep the money in the bank and not buy another toy This would make last years garage re-build a waste of money though!

I’m chiming in because the “c**t” (Cost? Cart? Cast? Cult? ) Jim refers to now offers EVs on salary sacrifice lease which makes one that bit more appealing - especially because we really very rarely go far and the big Merc does that job and race car towing. I should probably stick with the kids’ little 500 from an overall footprint point of view but one of the kids has nicked it.

The problem is I have absolutely no idea what to get. Mrs MRS currently has a MINI so is drawn to that. If I’m honest, though, I don’t much like the MINI. I’ve only ever had a go in an i3 (which I liked) but they are ugly and getting quite long in the tooth and expensive. I’m a fan of the 500 as an ICE. I guess the thing to do is test drive a few. I had been considering solar panels but it seems hard to find anybody that isn’t doing some sort of hard sell. Why are these things so difficult?

I just thought he might have Cornish or Welsh ancestry...!

I definitely think you should test as many EVs as you can or can be bothered. Whatever the dynamic properties of a car in ICE guise, it will almost always be worse as an electric. But there are compensations in other areas - joyful acceleration, especially up hills is a cliché, but true.
Other than that, our experience is of the "white goods" kind - easy to use and effective. Most EVs are also heavy on touch screens and light on analogue controls. If you're going to embrace that aesthetic, you might want to at least look at the Honda e.

I agree that trying to get any kind of solar (plus a battery) just seems to attract endless selling.

A colleague has, apparently, just traded in his one year old Mercedes A35 AMG, and ordered a Vauxhall Mokka E. To be fair the Mercedes has had a lot of issues over the last year, he's probably spent one month of his ownership period in different courtesy cars. The fellow does have a track record of owning Vauxhalls so that element seems to fit. But his decision to go electric has shocked the whole team, as far as I recall he doesn't even have a driveway!

I will wait to see if he has gone for it, or if it is all just a bluff.

That's Vauxhall electrics for you

Don't do anything to the orange wires!

When we were doing body repairs we had to complete an EV safety course about location of high tension cables. For us it was virtually irrelevant as we only tackled minor damage, but there were nasty stories about PDR guys getting shocks when using rods.
Manufacturers do sometimes route the cables in bizarre ways. Because Tesla wouldn't release details of their cabling to Thatcham, we were banned from working on them completely.
I must admit, if I were a Fire and Rescue Service person operating the "jaws", I'd be pretty reluctant to cut the top off an EV without clear guidance.

Safety is not being completely ignored, but the information flow is very slow, considering the take up and the legislation is lagging behind.

HSE on EV's

Our electrical infrastructure is governed by a set of regulations BS7671. These regulations ensure we adhere to a common practice for electrical infrastructure. This includes, installation, training for those and who can work on the infrastructure, and that we also undertake take regular tests and inspections. I know that the new 18th edition has amendments for EV chargers but I've not noticed anything to do, specifically, with vehicles.

We have manufacturers delivering training on EV's but there does not seem to be any recognised standard, or nationally recognised qualification on the matter. I do hope we don't wait for deaths to indicate we need some standards!

It turns out that the professional body, that I used to be a member of, has developed an accreditation.

IMI Accreditation

That's the qualification we had to do. Or possibly part of it.

I will never be in the market for a brand new car, but am thinking of replacing the Z4 with something easier to get in and out of (being less than supple/slim and over 50).

As my commute is only about 7 miles each way, and being in a 2 car household, then going electric does appeal, but the choice at the lower end of the second hand market is pretty dreadful - limited to 90 mile range Leafs and supermini Zoes - So I think it is going to wait before going fully leccy.

There is an appeal, and I can see the benefits in both cost, and simplicity in going electric

It's a similar thing with PHEVs which are still to fall into my budget.

As an aside, the other half has a company provided Grandland X PHEV. Now as much as I appreciate 300BHP in something the size of a shed (for a very short time) - the electric only range is only 30 miles, the regen charging seems pretty negligible, and the overall economy is significantly less than the Skoda Superb oil burner she had previously, so I am left with a nagging "whats the point" of a PHEV?
We don't have a charging point either, so trailing a 3pin plug out of the window is a PITA - and its a good job we live on the ground floor.

(Don't even mention what happens if you set it to charge the batteries from the engine as you are driving)

It's not just the mpg figures, it has a tank limited by space for the batteries. The Skoda would easily get from Oxfordshire to Oban, and a weeks pottering about on less than a tank, the Grandland got from Oxfordshire to North Kent and back and was on fumes.

As for "traditional" hybrids, it's a similar thing - unless the economy is significantly better than a similar sized diesel, there is no motivation to switch - even more so if it means driving a Prius. The only exception would be the CR-Z, as they are pretty cool to look at.


And Jim, the Vauxhall app is shyte!

For a 'commuter' an EV sounds a good choice I'm guessing at the cheaper end of the market the real world usability is proving difficult given the power issues you are having with only the 70m round trip....don't forget to offset the monthly car payment in the running costs especially so if pcp given 95% never make the balloon payment. So for me there lies the problem no practical range and the pcp payment offsets the petrol savings purchasing a decent used well maintained petrol super mini or alike may not suffer...I don't feel that guilty with my emissions as yet to pay through the nose for some 'not there yet tech' with a pitiful charging infrastructure years away from being viable/usable for the masses...maybe I should.

Just watched "Guy Martin: The World's Fastest Electric Car?" A few thoughts (SPOLER ALERT - if you haven't watched the show, look away!):

- Guy's partner has had an EV for a year/10k miles; Guy knows a lot more about EV's than he made out for the premise of the show. ( https://www.am-online.com/news/peop...-electric-movement-with-honda-e-purchase )
- Guy rode in the TT Zero at least once, so he knows a lot more... etc.
- The idea of the programme seemed to me to be to introduce reluctant petrolheads to the idea that EV's are more than virtue-signalling, impractical, clinical euroboxes for wealthy nerds. There's spannering, there's tyre-smoke, they can be "fast" as Guy said on a number of occasions.

As with much (but not all his stuff), I enjoyed the show, including the science-y stuff and the busting of several myths (exploding batteries, I'm looking at you), which I think will have done much to draw people in. The exploration of all those different types of EV was also a really good thing. I would have like to see something like an ambulance or maybe a more workmanlike van to complete the line-up, but you can't have everything. Also, why no mention of Guy's TT Zero bike...?

My suspicion is that by choosing the VW Beetle to make the record attempt, they were trying to show that EV's can have "soul" (as opposed to Kia Soul) and that the tech is applicable to all kinds of vehicle. I like the idea, but it scuppered them in the end.
My employer (>ahem!<) tried much the same thing back in 2012 with the Nemesis (which sits in the car park at work doing very little. I wonder if he'd let me borrow it..!). If Guy had opted for a similar donor car (a Lotus Elise), I suspect that the record would have been broken at Santa Pod.

On the other hand, I absolutely love what the fella in Wales does - awesome vehicles made modern, if not better...
I also reckon there was some realism in there for those of us who are too enamoured with EV life:
Much of the charging network *is* sub-standard; you can blame or thank Ecotricity for the Electric Highway, but the sale to Gridserve is a very good thing, in my view. The entire network should be brought up to a minimum of 50kW, with a cap on prices to that speed. If you want to pay more for 100, 350, whatever, then vultures like Ionity can charge their scam prices. At the moment, that type of profiteering is going to do real damage to EV adoption.
Guy's calculation that it cost close to £100 more to charge the Ioniq than it would have cost in diesel, is damning - and music to the ears of sceptics. Especially when the bloody thing didn't work!

In EV forum-land, the contentious statement Guy made at the end, about the suitability of EV's for everyday life earned him a lot of anger. He didn't say (as one bloke in another video alleged) that EV's can't go more than 50 miles, he said that they aren't practical if you regularly go somewhere 50 miles from your home, so he was setting a threshold of 100 miles.
Now you and I know that even my lowly Corsa-e can easily cope with that, but Guy's experience of normal, non-exotic EV's is a Honda E, with a manufacturer's claimed range of 136 miles and designed for urban life. He lives on a farm in rural Lincolnshire and his partner clearly hates the thing - due to range anxiety. If he'd chosen a more sensible EV (almost anything on the market, bar the Mini), I don't think he'd have made that statement.

So, overall, a really positive contribution to making EV's a bit sexier and fun, but realistic about the improvements needed to the charging network to make EV ownership and long-distance trips as easy as ICE.

Yep. That Beetle needed 4WD to get the power down... then it might have a contender.

It hasn't put me of EVs as if we do get one it will be used as a second car for all the local trips which to be fair is the vast majority.

As I don't have a subscription to the Times, I wasn't able to read it, but apparently there was an article about Dale Vince, EV's and the Nemesis in Tuesday's edition. It seems the Elise (or possibly Exige) based UK speed record holder is to be decommissioned and put in a museum.
Things have come a long way in a short time...

An unexpected bonus of having an EV is avoiding the knuckle-draggers causing petrol and diesel shortages.

Rather than sitting on the M25, perhaps Insulation Rebellion should just announce that there's absolutely no need to panic buy insulation

Just decided to make the change to an EV and placed an order for a Skoda Enyaq Coupe VRS. Range of approx 310 miles. Really looking forward to getting to grips with this new form of motoring for me at least.
Lots of options out there but this one ticked the boxes for me.

Exciting news, Cooperman.
I won't try to give you too much advice (as enthusiasts tend to!), but my only tip (unless, of course, you want more...?!) would be to keep your mind open.
Using an EV *is* different from using a traditional car and if you expect to treat the two identically, you might be disappointed. Charging and refuelling are not the same, probably never will be and that just needs a different philosophy to avoid frustration (and sometimes gain time overall).

Oh, ok, one more thing: forget the manufacturer's range figure. Plan journeys based on getting 2/3 of that range and, if you want a more representative figure, monitor how many miles you get per kWh in real life (there will be plenty of data available) and multiply it by the useable battery capacity (in the specs).

There I go, blathering on again...!

Enjoy your Skoda!

All good advice Jim, I plan to work around a range of 250 miles and split journeys with work / Eat breaks. Luckily I am developing Starbucks Drive Thru’s and EV charging points are installed as part of the fit outs.
I have developed enough stores over the last few years I can navigate by them now
I am sure there will be some learning needed but it’s the future so reckon it’s time to make the move.

Looks like the war in Ukraine is impacting Skoda and VW big time in respect to some key components and I am still awaiting a build date. It seems many of the main EV producers are having delays of one sort or another at the moment with wait times varying between 6 months to over 12. It’s like a case of hurry up and wait.

It's very frustrating! My son in law wants an Audi Q4 e-tron, but there's no chance of getting a new one in under 12 months.
I imagine the Skoda uses quite a few of the same parts.

Our lease on the Corsa-e runs out in a year and the lease company has advised us to tell them in 6 months what we'd like to go for next.
Luckily, we've taken the view that our EV is basically a large kitchen appliance, without the emotional engagement we have with our other cars. This means we will basically take whatever is available, now that our mileage requirement is down from 70 miles per day to 15!
Current possibilities include MG estate!

Happened to pass by the local MG garage (used to be Citroen for decades, but the franchise costs went up ludicrously, so they jumped to MG) and stopped in for a test drive of the MG5 EV estate.

Verdict: Exactly as expected! Competent, and average in every way - the perfect ordinary, non-premium (not even the cheap ones are actually cheap) EV.
Would make an ideal replacement for the equally non-descript Corsa, but there's a facelift coming right when we'd need to order, with associated price hike.
Still, it could be a contender. Think we'll try to test drive the others - just to make sure we're not missing out on a hidden gem...

I like reading your findings on this subject Jim, behind the spiel you find out how it is in reality. I do think for me I will dodge the need for a leccy car. Especially so up here in the Highlands. By what’s happening up here it’s going to be some time before we see significant numbers, the infrastructure will need years to come up to anything workable. I’m not interested in anything electric full stop, and when the time comes I will use the bus service, free for us seniors Just my slant on things.

Happy to oblige, Jim.
I'm a bit of an EV evangelist, but I'm well aware that they can't solve everyone's transport issues (and come with a few big ones of their own).
All other concerns side, I'd say the two most basic factors for EV ownership/leasing are:

1 - Can you have a home charger (or possibly a similarly accessible one at work)?
2 - Does your daily mileage (or, more accurately, your regular use between lengthy charging times at your home/work charger) exceed a comfortable percentage of the real world range of the EV you're considering? (Say 80%)

If the answer to 1 is no and/or the answer to 2 is yes, then I'd reckon an EV will add stress to your life, rather than removing it.